------------------------------
The Old-Time Radio Digest!
Volume 2001 : Issue 366
A Part of the [removed]!
ISSN: 1533-9289
Today's Topics:
MP3: A Clarification [ Harlan Zinck <buster@[removed]; ]
Paper Disks [ "Stephen A Kallis, Jr." <skallisjr@ ]
Re: Two Answers for George [ Elizabeth McLeod <lizmcl@[removed] ]
subject: Lonesome Gal [ Andy Lanset <alanset@[removed]; ]
Re Lone Ranger Cheerios pack [ "Thomas Mason" <batz34@[removed] ]
"The Evil Hoarders" - What Would You [ "[removed]" <swells@[removed]; ]
75 Years of NBC [ "Brian Johnson" <CHYRONOP@worldnet. ]
Vic & Sade [ "Rodney w bowcock jr." <rodney-self ]
Re: TV eclipses radio [ Joe Mackey <joemackey5@[removed]; ]
Setting the Record Straight [ Jim Widner <jwidner@[removed]; ]
Re: Paper Records [ Michael Biel <mbiel@[removed]; ]
"Public"? HA! [ hal stone <dualxtwo@[removed]; ]
Christmas carol: what date? [ "Ted Kneebone" <tkneebone1@[removed] ]
Radio Preachers [ "gary hagan" <grhagan@[removed]; ]
#OldRadio IRC Chat this Thursday Nig [ lois@[removed] ]
Today in Radio History 11/14 [ Joe Mackey <joemackey5@[removed]; ]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 15:57:13 -0500
From: Harlan Zinck <buster@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: MP3: A Clarification
Hello again --
A day or so ago, a nice fellow by the name of Norman Brickman wrote me an
e-mail in reply to my posting regarding the quality of MP3s:
I just read a post you provided to the Old Time Radio listserver about
your radio archives project. Sounds like great work - keep it up!
Could you please provide me with professional references to back up
your statement that "We don't work with or issue MP3s because, frankly,
the sound quality is simply not good enough." I work (carefully) with
mp3 and have not read-about or noticed there being a theoretical limit
to quality as you state, and yet of course it is a very important
topic. Just give me a couple of references (hopefully accessible on the
web) where audio engineer-types state that an mp3 compression like
128/44 is not good enough to faithfully reproduce CD-quality, or maybe
that 48/44 or 32/22 or whatever is not good enough for the OTR audio
quality, etc. You get the idea of what I am looking for.
I though the list would be interested in my reply so, in addition to
writing Norman, I'm posting it here as well.
* * *
Hi Norman --
I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression regarding the MP3 format. What I
really should have said was "We don't work with or issue MP3s because most
people seem to think that that any OTR MP3 CD needs to contain at least 100
programs!"
IMHO, It's not the format itself that is the problem, rather the use a
great many people seem to put it to. Rather than compressing the files to a
reasonable - ie no loss - level, they instead compress them as *much* as
possible so as to fit hundreds of files on a single CD. Though I don't have
the reference at hand, I know of one web site that states that radio
program files can be compressed more than music files because there won't
be that much difference anyway. It's this sort of thinking - coupled with
the fact that many multi-file OTR MP3s in general circulation have been
taken from multi-generational sources in the first place - that has
resulted in all the lousy-sounding MP3s out there.
MP3 is like any other format: it can be used to its best potential or it
can be used simply for its cost-savings. Perhaps a good comparison would be
with reel to reel tape. You can take a 2400' reel of high quality tape and
record a half-hour radio program on it at 15 ips full track. Though there
will probably be a bit of hiss - a problem typical of the medium - the
sound quality will be more than acceptable. You can also choose to record
two programs on the same reel at [removed] ips; a bit more hiss, a bit lower in
quality, but still acceptable.
However, you can also choose to record *four* programs on the same reel at
[removed] ips with a substantial loss in quality or *eight* programs half-track
or *sixteen* programs quarter-track. Pretty soon you've lost track of the
concept of recording for preservation and are caught up in how much you can
store on that single reel.
Because many OTR collectors have got into the mindset of obtaining as many
shows as possible, rather than focusing on the audio quality of the shows
they obtain, we find ourselves today with something like 100,000 shows in
general circulation with only a small percentage of them available in first
generation recordings. This, to me, is tragic - especially since many of
the disks and recordings from which these copies were made have either
disappeared, been locked away, been destroyed, or have degraded to the
point where a new transfer would be a challenge.
There is another reason why we don't use the MP3 format: flexibility. If we
issue a restored program on a standard audio CD, it can be played on
practically any CD player. A programs released as a WAV file or MP3 can
only be played on equipment that can handle such formats, and that limits
the number of people who can enjoy it. In addition, we believe that
standard audio CDs have the best potential to be widely playable - and thus
transferrable - in the coming years. Even if technology leads us in totally
different directions, in twenty years there will still be the need to be
able to play an audio CD one way or another.
Overall, I guess my statement was incorrect or at least misleading.
Responsibly used, MP3 *can* have a place in OTR. But the reality is that
many people view MP3 only for its cost savings - "Hundreds of shows at only
*pennies* each!" - rather than for its other benefits. And, with 80-minute
high quality blank CDs costing less than a basic quality 60- minute blank
cassette, this is a real shame.
My greatest fear is that MP3s will lead OTR down the same road as reel to
reel tape did: though there was the potential for individuals to transfer
disks to tape and create high-fidelity safeties, a great many people
instead chose to cram as much material as possible onto a single reel.
This, coupled with the degredation inherent with copying copies of analog
copies, has resulted in the incorrect belief that OTR can't sound as good
as a modern recording - or even a commercial release from the same period.
Thanks for writing, Norman, and for giving me the chance to clarify my
statement. I hope you'll continue to use MP3 responsibly and will also
consider supporting the First Generation Radio Archives in our efforts to
preserve and restore original radio recordings.
Sincerely,
Harlan Zinck
First Generation Radio Archives
[removed]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:01:09 -0500
From: "Stephen A Kallis, Jr." <skallisjr@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Paper Disks
The scholarly Elizabeth McLeod, responding to A. Joseph Ross' question
about paper disks, notes,
These were very common in the 1940s, as a cheap type of recording blank
for the Recordio
home-hobbyist crowd, but were never acceptable for professional use.
I recall that in 1947 von a visit from Tacoma, Washington, to New York
City, I as a 10-year-old, visited Coney Island, and found a coin-operated
booth in which I could record my own voice onto a paper disk record.
(Being only 10 years old, I did a quick 1-minute fantasy -- like an OTR
adventure -- with me as the hero. That at least keeps it [by its
fingernails] on-topic.) The booth had available mailing envelopes: one
could make a recording to send to somebody distant.
After the record was first cut, before it was delivered, it was replayed,
so the buyer could hear it. Even on first play, it had noticeable
surface noise.
Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:53:29 -0500
From: Elizabeth McLeod <lizmcl@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Re: Two Answers for George
George Wagner wonders about groove creep,
Isn't this also the problem with aluminum
recordings from the early 1930s? Aluminum being such a
soft metal, I've long assumed that the grooves would
tend to flow closed with the passage of decades.
The grooves are actually quite stable in uncoated-aluminum discs -- they
were embossed under about six pounds of pressure, and tend to stay put.
While many uncoated aluminum discs are found with grooves that seem quite
shallow when compared to other types of discs, this is simply the way
they were made -- the groove was embossed, not cut, and no material was
removed from the disc, resulting in a shallow groove.
As long as you don't store them in a moist environment or try to play
them with a steel needle, I'd suggest that uncoated aluminum discs are
probably the most stable format used to record OTR. They don't break like
glass, they don't warp or chip like shellac, they don't chemically
decompose like lacquer -- the major enemies of the format are oxidation
(which can be avoided by careful storage) and damage resulting from
improper playing (which can be avoided by not trying to play them unless
you know what you're doing.)
The second question has doubtless been asked and
answered here before, but if so I missed it. What
exactly is the really strange pre-chimes sound heard
at the end of very early 1930s NBC programs? This
sound fascinates me, but I can't quite place it. To my
tin ear it sounds like the breakup strand of the
National Anthem of Mars.
I'm not sure what sound you're referring to here. There are a number of
wierd mechanical sounds that can be heard on aluminum discs. There's a
low but steady whirring background noise that can be usually be heard
thruout the disc, and there are often squeals or squips created by
stopping the turntable -- these are often heard in spots where the
recording process was paused to avoid commercials as well as at the ends
of discs, and usually sound like a combination of a thump and a
variable-pitched whistle. On Victor Home Recording discs from the early
thirties, this effect is even more pronounced -- there is often a
noticeable "scoop" effect as the disc comes up to speed at the start of
the recording and then slows to a stop at the finish. The sound is
something like a cheesy Tanner Library laser effect. (anyone who did
smalltime radio production in the 1980s knows what I mean.)
There are also pre-G-E-C versions of the chimes that are heard on a few
pre-1932 NBC recordings: these are simply different arrangements of the
chimes, rung by hand, that were used before the cue was standardized. I
only know of three recordings in circulation which include such early
chimes, so it's not a common thing to find one.
Elizabeth
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:54:42 -0500
From: Andy Lanset <alanset@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: subject: Lonesome Gal
OTR listers,
I am putting together a short piece for one of the WNYC arts programs on
Lonesome Gal. I have plenty of her cooing voice tracks from syndicated
transcriptions - but no music. I'm looking for some period romantic music
suggestions and any information about her beyond what's already in Dunning.
I'd love to hear from anyone out there who was a regular listener to her
program.
Thanks.
Andy Lanset
alanset@[removed]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:04:20 -0500
From: "Thomas Mason" <batz34@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Re Lone Ranger Cheerios pack
When first I heard of this neat Lone Ranger/Cheerios offer, I scoured all
the local markets with no luck. I did talk to one manager and he said that
he had received ONE case of them a couple weeks previous and they were all
gone within the day.
So, my answer was to go to EBay and pay twice what it sold for, but at least
I have it now.
Good luck to everyone in trying to find it in your local market. I would
love to hear of any success stories.
Tom Mason
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:41:54 -0500
From: "[removed]" <swells@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: "The Evil Hoarders" - What Would You Do?
Here is an interesting question worthy or debate; say for instance that
you, while reading the Sunday newspaper, notice an estate auction in which
you read that there were a considerable amount of "very unusual old
phonograph records." Being a collector of vintage radio broadcasts you
become intrigued. On the given date and time you venture out to make an
inspection of the material. You notice that the "old phonographs" are
actually the entire series of "I Love A Mystery" series on transcriptions.
Excited about your find you sit and wait for the items come up for bid. You
hope that no one else knows of the discovery or the potential value of these
recordings. The bidding starts and you soon discover that there are indeed a
couple of people who know what these " old phonographs" are. A bidding war
breaks out, and in the end, due to your "deeper pockets" you prevail for the
sum of $8,[removed] When you get home with your prize you set about recording
the episodes because you are concerned about the taking care of the
transcriptions and thus not continually play them. So, you break out the
highest quality open reel tapes, cassettes, CD's, or a partially decomposed
maple leaf and begin recording each and every episode in original broadcast
order.
After you finish, you marvel at you accomplishment and sit back and
enjoy your treasures. But then, another thought enters your mind, what do
you do now? Can you tell someone of your find, because if you do and word
gets out people will bombard you for copies. Do you sell, trade, or donate
them to a "non-profit organization?" There's no doubt once they leave your
hands that they will be completely pilfered throughout the world, either on
reel, cassette, CD, CD/MP3, or etched with a nail on a old soggy piece of
bark. thus leaving you with a considerably less valuable set of
transcriptions, and $8,000 poorer.
Bear in mind that this is a piece of fiction, and was written to help
with the discussion on this matter. I will say that this story is not as far
fetched as some may think. As a matter of fact, a very small set of 7 or 8
transcription of shows not known to exist were just recently auctioned off
for a price of $2,[removed] !! Yes, that's correct, two thousand three hundred
[removed]
I look forward to reading your thoughts on the subject.
Shawn
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:42:01 -0500
From: "Brian Johnson" <CHYRONOP@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: 75 Years of NBC
There's a collection of articles celebrating NBC's 75th Anniversary in this
week's Electronic Media.
[removed]
Brj
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:58:49 -0500
From: "Rodney w bowcock jr." <rodney-selfhelpbikeco@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Vic & Sade
Ever since I started seriously collecting OTR shows, I've heard wonderful
things about Vic & Sade. I decided to break down and see what all of the
hubub is about, and I discovered that out of the companies I've purchased
from in the past, only Radio Spirits has episodes of this show. In
short, my question is: Is the Radio Spirits set worth spending $35 for?
rodney.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 20:26:14 -0500
From: Joe Mackey <joemackey5@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Re: TV eclipses radio
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 23:49:16 -0500
From: OTRChris@[removed]
Subject: Re: TV eclipses radio
In regard to the I LOVE LUCY episode where they don't know what to do
that evening when the TV breaks down I have to wonder if it is a little bit
of TV's exageration of its own importance at the time.
My father brought the second tv set in Huntington, WV after visiting
friends who had the first one. They got a very grainy, snowy picture
from Cincinnati (WLWT?) and my father knew that was the wave of the
future. It was at least six months later before WSAZ went on the air in
1949. People from blocks around would "drop in" about the time the
Indian head test pattern would be aired and stared at the box.
TV was a novelty and there is no doubt in my mind, hearing from
others, that the scene where people didn't know what to do when the tv
broke was common.
In 1952 I know of many people who were yet to have their own TV set yet.
For those who had didn't have a tv there was no problem. They
probably didn't even see the show. :)
Joe
--
Visit my home page:
[removed]~[removed]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 20:28:04 -0500
From: Jim Widner <jwidner@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Setting the Record Straight
OTRChris posits:
How can you encourage children to listen to a contemporary radio drama
that
appeals to their imagination when there aren't any ? There should always be
a few shows even in the 21st century --That is all I am trying to say.
I think one of the issues is that fewer and fewer of the younger generation
are really listening to radio. With the onslaught of the Internet, mp3, and
CD-RW (soon to be displaced by DVD-R types) I see more and more of this
generation turning to those media for their listening pleasure. While I am
not saying radio will go the way of vaudeville, I do think that radio drama
is not something that will ever be economically viable broadcast toward
younger and younger generations.
Someone sometime ago suggested Internet style radio dramas being produced.
I would suspect you might get more of a listen to this type of medium,
though I would also believe that unless it was able to be copied,
compressed and otherwise written to CD, you won't see very many going for it.
I have watched more and more of the younger group coming to OTR mostly via
the web and the mp3 phenomenon. That is fine by me if it gets them to
listen to it. As to newer produced dramas, I would suspect that they'd fair
better in a web-based environment except for those of us who either grew up
with radio or early television who would rather wax nostalgic through the
ether.
However, as a slightly tangential comment, there has been one unfortunate
(for me) element and that is the "everything should be free" aspect
surrounding old time radio and even most anything on the Internet. One
thing this technology has created is a sort of free-for-all emotion. Look
at how many get incensed when someone tries to sell their wares via the
web. I have had emails from posts I have made in other forums leaving me
with the impression of "why buy?" when you can simply download it.
Until some kind of real controls over copyrights and licenses of newer
drama is created, we probably won't see much of material being offered for
download such as the Atlanta Radio Theatre and other groups which try to
support their efforts via sales . It would be nice if these groups were
sometimes able to produce their shows live via the Internet (I believe the
Gotham Radio Players has done so occasionally via WBAI's streams). Unless
there could be some kind of sponsorship or subscription this won't come to
pass anytime soon - and this is the very reason that commercial radio drama
will not be heard either.
One more example - look at Hi Brown's Radio Mystery Theatre - a copyrighted
work that might have been nice to get via the Internet - but not
commercially feasible since one can find locations to download them for
free - a clear violation of his right to market.
I should go on record that I am not advocating copyrights for old time
radio Ala Radio Spirits, but do respect legitimate licenses to market.
Jim Widner
jwidner@[removed]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 20:27:41 -0500
From: Michael Biel <mbiel@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Re: Paper Records
From: Fred Berney <berney@[removed];
Years ago, my grandparents gave me some of their records. Some of
them were actually "pressed" onto card board. The were one sided.
I think it was something like the "hit of the week".
"Hit of the Week" records were indeed paper records with the recording
pressed into the surface coated with a hard plastic called
"Durium"--which also was the name of the company. A new record was
available at your newsstand every Thursday for only 15 cents, but this
was 1930 to 1932 and even 15 cents was sometimes a lot to come up with.
But they did sell well and many of them are still very commen and easy
to find, but they did not sell well enough to keep the company in
business.
What is important about these records for OTR fans is that some of them
are announced by Tony Wons. The ones he is on are some of the
finer-grooved ones that had two selections on each side. As the college
fight song that often was the second selection is ending, Tony would
remind the college kids to remember to get the next record on Thursday.
Eddie Cantor and Rudy Vallee appeared on a few of them.
In addition to Hit of the Week, Durium also made small advertising
records that were often sent thru the mail. They made several million
copies of an ad for the 1932 Chevrolet. They made far fewer copies of a
recording of Amelia Earhart that was included in her book. Frank Knight
is heard doing a CBS announcement at the end of the recording. There is
another one that features a short scene by Myrt and Marge.
A full discography of the weekly series was published many years ago,
but only recently has there been a concentrated effort to list all of
the other contracted recordings they manufactured. A man in Holland is
heading this effort, Hans Koert, and he has a community web site with
full information and graphics at [removed]
Michael Biel mbiel@[removed]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 20:28:56 -0500
From: hal stone <dualxtwo@[removed];
To: OldRadio Mailing Lists <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: "Public"? HA!
HARLAN ZINCK's responded, to this Harlan's statement.
And I know lots of people that prefer reading books. (I'm going broke with
the amount of books my wife buys to read. She's a reading machine.) :)
I have just two words for you, Hal: public library.
And I now respond with two [removed]"PRIVATE" Library!
It seems my wife, the good hearted Dorothy, started a circulating Library of
her own. When she finishes a "paperback" novel, it gets sent to one
Daughter, who after reading it, sends it on to the other Daughter.
Local Lending Library's get ticked off if you did that with their inventory.
Unfortunately, with the amount of Plane travel that Dorothy has to do, (And
the two hour early check in), overnight hotel stays, etc., she can go
through 4 books a trip sometimes. <Sigh>
Had to get in plug in for your public library, as well as the Archives! After
all, libraries pay my salary!
Lucky [removed] the Stone Circulating Library doesn't pay me a dime.
And to keep out of trouble,I had better make this posting more topical. I'm
thinking of getting her a portable cassette player so she can listen to
"Archie" shows to while away the time.
Hal Stone
(Harlan # 2, to you)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:19:37 -0500
From: "Ted Kneebone" <tkneebone1@[removed];
To: "Old Time Radio Digest" <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Christmas carol: what date?
I have the Christmas Carol that Elizabeth has commented on. Her description
fits my copy. It came from another trader who informed me that the star was
George Ludlum, and that it was broadcast by NBC in 1931. However, the
recording has no credits whatever on it, nor is it identified as being an
NBC production. If anyone finds the correct date, I would like to have it.
In the meantime, I am changing my catalog entry to read something like "No
date; possibly 1930s" and will delete reference to NBC.
Ted Kneebone
1528 S. Grant St., Aberdeen, SD 57401 / 605-226-3344
OTR: [removed]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:44:19 -0500
From: "gary hagan" <grhagan@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Radio Preachers
In reference to all the talk about Oral Roberts and radio preachers, does
anyone out there remember a broadcast preacher named Curtis Springer? He
used to play gospel songs on the record player and pretend the artists were
in the room and introduce them as such.
He was broadcasting from a place in California I believe called Sizex
Mineral Springs. Used to catch him late at night while turning the dial.
Anyone? He was quite the character and talked with a hoarse kind of voice.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 04:52:00 -0500
From: lois@[removed]
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: #OldRadio IRC Chat this Thursday Night!
A weekly [removed]
For the best in OTR Chat, join IRC (Internet Relay Chat), StarLink-IRC
Network, the channel name is #OldRadio. We meet Thursdays at 8 PM Eastern
and go on, and on! The oldest OTR Chat Channel, it has been in existence
over four years, same time, same channel!
Our numerous "regulars" include one of the busiest "golden years" actors in
Hollywood; a sound man from the same era who worked many of the top
Hollywood shows; a New York actor famed for his roles in "Let's Pretend" and
"Archie Andrews;" owners of some of the best OTR sites on the Web;
maintainer of the best-known OTR Digest (we all know who he is)..........
and Me
Lois Culver
KWLK Longview Washington (Mutual) 1941-1944)
KFI Los Angeles (NBC) 1944 - 1950
and widow of actor Howard Culver
(For more info, contact lois@[removed])
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:16:06 -0500
From: Joe Mackey <joemackey5@[removed];
To: otr-net <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Today in Radio History 11/14
From Today in History from the History Network --
1922 The British Broadcasting Company (BBC) begins the first daily
radio broadcasts from Marconi House.
Joe
--
Visit my home page:
[removed]~[removed]
--------------------------------
End of [removed] Digest V2001 Issue #366
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