Subject: [removed] Digest V2002 #329
From: "OldRadio Mailing Lists" <[removed]@[removed];
Date: 8/20/2002 9:06 AM
To: <[removed]@[removed];

------------------------------


                            The Old-Time Radio Digest!
                              Volume 2002 : Issue 329
                         A Part of the [removed]!
                                 ISSN: 1533-9289


                                 Today's Topics:

  Responding to Clif                    [ lawrence albert <albertlarry@yahoo. ]
  Candice Bergen                        [ Gary McDole <gmcdole@[removed]; ]
  RE: today's sfx                       [ ""Cynthia \"ChibiBarako\""" < ]
  A Candice appearance with Charlie Mc  [ John Mayer <mayer@[removed]; ]
  Candy cigarettes                      [ "A. Joseph Ross" <lawyer@attorneyro ]
  JEFF COREY                            [ PURKASZ@[removed] ]
  Library of Congress                   [ "Martin Grams, Jr." <mmargrajr@hotm ]
  re: Burns & Allen Format Change       [ "W. Gary Wetstein" <wgaryw@pacbell. ]
  Re: Lee's Advertising Quiz            [ John Mayer <mayer@[removed]; ]
  Re: Cigarette Slogans                 [ John Mayer <mayer@[removed]; ]
  Influence of Cigarettes               [ LSMFTnolonger@[removed] ]
  Voices of World War II                [ "Irene Heinstein" <IreneTH@[removed] ]
  re: sound effects today               [ "Henry Brugsch" <henry@listentohear ]
  Fisk Tires and Candy Cigarettes       [ "Russ Butler" <oldradio@[removed] ]
  Lux, where are you?                   [ Herb Harrison <herbop@[removed] ]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:49:07 -0400
From: lawrence albert <albertlarry@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  Responding to Clif

    Ok, I'm responding to Clif. First off I seriously
doubt that there is anything I or any other producer
of modern radio drama can do to change your mind about
how superior OTR is to NTR. So I'll not try. However,
as a long time collector of OTR (30 years) I will
defend the product I'm involved with to the hilt. We
do not use stereo sound , not because we can't, but
because we chose not to. All of our actors are
professionals, members of AFTRA and I will put their
acting up against anybodies from the days of OTR. We
enjoy a wide audience, most of whom are not
collectors, many of whom grew up in the days of OTR.
We receive many letters from these folks thanking us
for giving them something of quality to listen to for
a change on the radio.
     I love OTR. I always have tapes with me in the
car. I have spent a small fortune on it over the
years. Of course we can't produce the quantity of
yesteryear, but our quality does not suffer in
comparison to most of what was on in those dear dead
days. Because Clif most of OTR was mediocre and
formulaic as is most of today's television. That's why
the high points like Jack Benny, Lux, Gunsmoke,
Suspense, Escape etc,etc  standout.
     The company I work for chooses to follow the path
of the best of OTR formulas; tell a good story, hire
good talent and paint the pictures for the mind. For
those producer who choose to break new ground with
sound and stories, good, go for it.
         Sorry Clif I'm afraid I've wandered. Anyway
at least I didn't tell my Bob Hope story.
               Larry Albert

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:49:41 -0400
From: Gary McDole <gmcdole@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  Candice Bergen

Ron Sayles wrote:

There is an interview with Candice Bergen in the latest issue of Reader's
Digest. I have read in another source that she appeared on her father's show
at least once, maybe more. I have never seen this program listed anywhere. Is
it available?

She appeared on the December18, 1955 show, which is available.  I don't
know if there were other appearances.

Gary in Berkeley

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 00:12:23 -0400
From: ""Cynthia \"ChibiBarako\""" <cvc@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  RE: today's sfx

Clif Martin was discussing live "primitive" sound effects vs. recorded
"state of the art" effects.

I'm going to jump in with my 2c worth.  First of all, I am *not* a radio
professional, past or present.  I am a member of a OTR fan club that
does radio recreations for libraries, schools, retirement centers,
churches and the like.  We do *not* make money at this; we're just out
to remind the people who remember and show the people who don't. (Trust
me; I've bought many of my effects with my own money, and others are
refugees from somebody's basement.)

Because of our limitations, we do use recorded musical links (lifted
from the program when possible, or another program from the same series,
but sometimes we just use something classical that sounds right because
of overlapping applause/response/lines/etc.)  (We try to avoid shows
with orchestral and singer breaks, and usually ignore them when they
appear in the scripts that we do use.)

We use a combination of recorded and live effects.  Since everything has
got to be portable, car effects and such are recorded effects, but we
don't worry about whether we've got a Maxwell, a Packard, an Edsel or a
Yugo.  Live effects are easier to control than recorded effects -- you
don't have to worry about whether your sound bite is too long or too
short, it all depends on the stamina/speed/coordination of the sound
man. (Or men, if I'm lucky.)  And live effects are a lot more fun for
the audience to watch!  It's one thing to whip out a sheet of glass, a
mallet and a garbage can (or my little microchip-powered toy hammer,
which does have the advantage of being neater and safer) to shatter a
window; it's quite another to put on a jacket with a metal zipper and
"saw" away at a piece of "wood".  That's one of my favorite parts of
doing sound: trying to figure out just how to come up with the noise
with something that will fit in the trunk of a sedan -- along with
everything else! -- and can be hauled about by a 5'4" woman.  As it is,
I've gotten some strange looks walking into a library with my rolling
milk crate, a 4 foot length of galvanized pipe with an unbent coat
hanger stuck in it and a small shopping bag with two bricks in it.  Oh,
yeah; and a 24 x 24 piece of plywood with feet which is my walking
board.  (The crate has my routine and small effects, the pipe was for
_My Friend Irma_ where Irma loses Al's ring, and the bricks were for
_Fibber McGee & Molly_ where Fibber gets stuck in the paving material.)

IMHO, where possible and practical, live effects are preferable for live
performance.  I haven't heard enough NTR to comment on whether recorded
effects are better for studio shows, but I suspect Cliff may be onto
something -- they might be a little *too* perfect.  (Recall the old
canard about how no spaceship ever really goes "swoosh" but no science
fiction film feels right without it!)

Well, maybe that was more like a nickel.  Charlie, my apologies; you
know how talkative I get ...

Cynthia

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 00:42:59 -0400
From: John Mayer <mayer@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  A Candice appearance with Charlie McCarthy
 but not necessarily with  Edgar

Ron Sayles <bogusotr@[removed]; asked:
I have read in another source that [Candice Bergen] appeared on her
father's show
at least once, maybe more.

I haven't heard that show, but I'd say it's very likely. Somewhere I have a
copy of a Jack Benny TV show where, as I recall, Jack goes to Bergen's house
and is greeted and entertained by cute little Candice, who complains about
having to share Edger's affections with Charlie and Mortimer. At the end of
the show both those worthies walk into the room and exchange gags with Jack.
I don't actually remember Edgar being in the show at all, but it's been years
since I saw it. Anyhow, it's an indication that Edgar was not above putting
his little girl to work.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 01:01:53 -0400
From: "A. Joseph Ross" <lawyer@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  Candy cigarettes

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:04:24 -0400
From: "Mary Anne Morel" <morel@[removed];

That started me thinking about how my generation was set up to be the
next generation of smokers by buying realistic candy cigarettes
(glowing red tip, etc.) in colorful cigarette-sized packages. (Not only
were we the next generation of smokers, we were also walking
advertisements for the weed.)

I remember two different kinds of candy cigarettes: The white candy with
red tips that you describe, and milk chocolate cigarettes inside
realistic cigarette paper.  As I recall, the brands on the package
mimicked real cigarette brand names, but not exactly.  For example, there
was "Lucky Stride," "Lucky Streek," "Pamel," etc.  I remember once
"smoking" a Lucky Strike variant, and I remarked, "Lucky Strike Means
Fine Tobacco!"  And my aunt replied, "I thought it meant fine candy."

Despite all the candy cigarettes and chocolate cigars, I've never smoked
the real stuff.  By the time I became old enough, I was hearing the
cancer info.  When I was in 9th grade, I saw my uncle die of lung cancer,
and I saw both my parents quit smoking.  So I never even wanted to try
it.

A. Joseph Ross, [removed]                           [removed]
 15 Court Square, Suite 210                 lawyer@[removed]
Boston, MA 02108-2503           	         [removed]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:38:36 -0400
From: PURKASZ@[removed]
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  JEFF COREY

    Heartbreaking news of the passing of Jeff Corey.
    He was the man above all others who persuaded me to attain some reality
and stillness in my work.
    I was most fortunate to be in his classes for a few years.
    I was hoping to see him once more as he and his wife Hope could be found
walking on the beach near Malibu.
    I lost contact some years ago. Can anybody tell me more offline.
    I went from the elation of the Mantan Moreland memory to a wrenching dive
after reading Barbara's announcement.
    We even go to be in a scene together in the movie "Butch and Sundance,
The Early Years" directed by Richard Lester.
    After one particular take he asked me, "How was it Mike?"
    It was like we were back in his garage again.
    Good-bye old pal. You were a major inspiration for me.
                         <A HREF="[removed],+Michael+C.">
Michael C. Gwynne</A>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:39:01 -0400
From: "Martin Grams, Jr." <mmargrajr@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  Library of Congress

In 1989, M/B/RS published "Three Decades of Television: a Catalog of
Television Programs Acquired by the Library of Congress, 1949- 79" compiled
by Sarah Rouse and Katherine Loughney. The catalog is a complete list of
holdings up to 12/31/79, excluding commercials and news programs.
I was wondering if anyone knows if this volume is available or better yet,
does anyone have access to the volume?  There is a listing regarding
(believe-it-or-not) a radio broadcast dramatized on television in 1954 and I
suspect this book would help fill in the blanks I need.  If anyone has
access, and can look it up, I'd be more than willing to reimburse for their
time.
Martin
mmargrajr@[removed]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:39:26 -0400
From: "W. Gary Wetstein" <wgaryw@[removed];
To: OTR Digest <[removed]@[removed];
Subject:  re: Burns & Allen Format Change

From: chris chandler <chrischandler84@[removed];

George Burns variously credited himself with the
inspiration for this innovation (in a supposed
middle-of-the-night brainstorm that led him to awaken
Gracie with his epiphany:  "We're playing too old!
We've got to start ACTING married!"), as well as CBS
chief Bill Paley, to whom Burns awarded credit on
Paley's CBS-TV obituary program in October, 1990.  And
perhaps others.

george was never one to be trusted with factual details on his life or
career.  i had never heard of him crediting bill paley for the decision to
start playing a married couple on radio (was paley even involved in
broadcasting in 1941???).  i have heard him credit paley with helping to
develop the burns and allen TV program.

I've heard various explanations for Burns'
appropriation of others ideas', ranging from ad-agency
influence to Friar's club "in joke"; whatever its
source, this 'copycat syndrome' certainly served the
comedian well over the years.

i would suggest, though, that the TV series was far more original and
innovative than the radio program ever was.  the play "our town" aside,
having an actor step out of character on TV in 1950 was quite ahead of its
time.  certainly not the first example of this in entertainment history, but
certainly ahead of tis time.  when has television ever been as daring as
theater?

i'd have to agree that adding ronnie burns to the TV cast does seem directly
influenced by the success of ricky nelson. but what was the precedent for
the magic TV set in george's den?  how many programs can you think of which
introduced a funny, wholly original new element after 6 years on the air?

i also think that the protrayal of the burns marriage on TV was far more
interesting and charming than on radio.  he rarely gets angry at her, and
seems to view her as almost a force of nature to be surrendered to with a
bemused smile.  there was virtually none of the typical
husband-and-wife-bickering routines on TV that were done on radio.  that set
them quite apart from most other married couples on TV and radio.

And of course, as the show's own
production staff was first to admit, even George's one
great TV innovation--that of speaking directly to the
audience--was lifted from Thornton Wilder's 'Our
Town'.

i would suggest a closer source than "our town".  burns was good friends
with goodman ace, who had revived the "easy aces" series in 1948 as a
half-hour situation comedy.  in this revival series, ace acted as both
narrator/commentator on the action, and participant in it.  though the show
wasn't a success, it would seem likely that burns was at least aware of it.
and given his less than academic background, i'd believe he was influenced
by his friend goodman ace before i'd believe he lifted an element of
thornton wilder's "our town". . .

all that said, i think chris has sold burns short just a bit.  i think the
parallels he draws between side characters on the burns and allen radio show
and other OTR characters is quite interesting, but these are far from direct
copies.  the only thing senator claghorn and mr. judson shared, for example,
was their vocal mannerisms.  the comedy material of their routines was
entirely different.  (claghorn's schtick was about being from the south, and
political humor; judson's schtick was an obsession with texas, and his
obsene wealth). i'm not saying i found judson to be particularly funny, but
i don't see him as a direct ripoff of senator claghorn by any means.

in my opinion, what burns was doing was keeping up with trends in the
entertainment industry, which is a large part of how he kept the team
successful for so many years.  if it's true, as chris suggests, that burns
switched the format of the radio show in 1941 because he noted the success
of fibber mcgee and molly, that doesn't mean he simply copycatted the idea
from the them.  one could hardly argue that the two shows mined the same
sorts of humor at all.  whoever realized it originally, or why, the general
trend on radio around this time-- across many comedy programs-- was away
from stand-up vaudeville-style humor to more situation comedy-oriented
humor.

again, i could more easily see "easy aces" as a model for the married-couple
format of burns and allen.  but even in this case, where both couples
centered around a dizzy wife, the style and humor of these shows was totally
different.  chris is right: there was nothing else in show biz like gracie.
but gracie's impeccable performances were only half of the reason for that;
the other half was the behind-the-scenes guidance and creative control of
george burns.

of course, i am a bit of a biased fanatic. . .

regards,

w. gary wetstein

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:40:49 -0400
From: John Mayer <mayer@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  Re: Lee's Advertising Quiz

Lee Munsick leemunsick@[removed] queried:

Picture a little character in an old-fashioned nightshirt carrying a
lighted candle on a
candlestick.  Now, what's the slogan, and more important the [removed]

Hey, I know one! Fisk tire and the slogan was, "Time to retire." We had a
lighted plastic statue of the little guy atop some tire store here in
Knoxville for years; I hadn't realized till you reminded me of him that I've
not seen that radian figure in many years.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:40:23 -0400
From: John Mayer <mayer@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  Re: Cigarette Slogans

Herb Harrison <herbop@[removed]; asked:

Just out of curiosity, does anybody remember any radio commercials for
various brands of smokes? I remember "[removed]  Lucky Strike Means Fine
Tobacco."

In light of what we know today of the perils of smoking, many of those old
commercials have a hint of the sinister. The various slogans of Old Gold
stick in my mind as especially ironic; some of the were (If Memory Serves
[IMS]): "Not a cough in a carload,"  "Gives you a treat instead of a
treatment," and, "The brand more doctors smoke." That last one may have been
another brand, [removed] Anyhow, those slogans suggest that even then people
had doubts about the dangers of smoking. Enough so that I question the
multimillion dollar settlements going to smokers now suffering the
predictable consequences.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:41:05 -0400
From: LSMFTnolonger@[removed]
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  Influence of Cigarettes

I grew up watchng the Jack Benny TV show and the tailend of Jack Benny
on radio too. I loved the Lucky Strike commercials. I liked the slogans
and the catchy tunes.

I also remember fondly eating candy cigarettes in elementary school.
They were in boxes that resembled the original brands but usually the
names were slightly misspelled (I assume so that they wouldn't be sued).

So, of course, when I grew up I loved smoking real cigarettes. Right?
WRONG!!! I have never smoked a cigarette in my life.

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:41:28 -0400
From: "Irene Heinstein" <IreneTH@[removed];
To: "OTR" <[removed]@[removed];
Subject:  Voices of World War II

For those of you interested in WWII broadcasts I suggest you check out a
website at U of Missouri-Kansas City which I surfed to while researching
Glenn Miller:  Voices of World War II:  Experiences from the Front and at
Home"  which is part of the Marr Sound Archives which describes itself as

"a leader in the field of audio preservation and digitization.  The Marr's
sound preservation studio preserves modern as well as obsolete audio formats
and its digitizing and RealAudio capabilities allow it to provide world-wide
access to sound recorded on almost any analog or digital source."

There's a lot of interesting stuff there.

The link is:
[removed]

Irene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:42:55 -0400
From: "Henry Brugsch" <henry@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject:  re: sound effects today
X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative
X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain

Been listening to the discussion on modern sound effects. I have no
qualifications in the field, accept, perhaps for a seat of the pants feel for
sound, it being I spend a lot of time recording steam locomotives, and sounds
of aviation in my spear time. Also, I have listened to a fair bit of [removed]
the years. In general, seems that in terms of sound scape, the British for the
most part are getting it right. There are a goodly number of modern
productions that they have done which are incredible from the point of an
evocation of an atmosphere. I have never been into space, nor do I have any
first hand experience along that line, but if you can find a drama called "The
Shadow of Mir", there you'd find a good example of what can be done with good
sound design, well-written dialogue, and use of music. This was one of the
most moving plays I have yet to have heard on the BBC.
I know, for example the sounds of the shuttle taking off weren't technically
accurate, but they were in terms of the over-all experience. Sounds of
retro-rockets sounded more like pneumatic tubes being opened and closed, but I
they conveyed the effect. This, given that all sound such recordings I have
heard of retro-rockets sound more like air escaping.
--
henry Brugsch
mailto://henry@[removed] [removed]

  *** This message was altered by the server, and may not appear ***
  ***                  as the sender intended.                   ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:42:17 -0400
From: "Russ Butler" <oldradio@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject:  Fisk Tires and Candy Cigarettes

It was posted about the advertising slogan "Time to Retire"
- it was the Fisk Tire Company with the little boy walking in his pajamas
carrying a lighted candle in an old-fashioned candle holder as the logo
graphic and the complete slogan was "It's time to retire!"  (that is, of
course, re-tire your wheels with Fisk, I don't think any relation to the
baseball catcher, Carlton Fisk, nes pa?)

And Mary Ann Morel describes the candy cigarettes:  I remember them as being
strong, white peppermint sticks with the red color tips in faux cigarette
packages but with similar brand names like "Lucky Sticks" for "Lucky
Strikes."

Also candy chocolate cigarettes that were individually wrapped in white
paper, some had a gold foil tip, and were not packaged.  Candy cigars too
with the wrapper band for your finger and, not to forget (perhaps they are
still being distributed as samples on the college campus) those little "four
packs" in small cardboard boxes of Chesterfield, Old Gold, Camels, Luckies,
et al.  Why four cigarette samples?  Because smoking just four cigarettes
started your system craving nicotine, I found out after I stopped smoking.

Russ Butler   oldradio@[removed]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:43:13 -0400
From: Herb Harrison <herbop@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  Lux, where are you?

Ga6string@[removed] (Bryan Powell) wrote:

Still, getting back to the original thread, it was rare that advertising (TV,
for my generation) drove these purchases. It's only now, in my later, more
thoughtful (ha!) years that I'll consider support a product because of the
programs it sponsors. Lux, where are you?

Lux is still [removed] at my local '99 Cents Only' store: 3 bars for 99 cents.
If they ever bring back the "Lux Television Theater", I expect the same
package to appear on the shelves of upscale stores, priced at $[removed]
By the way, was there a "Lux Radio Theater"? That phrase sticks in my [removed]
By the way 2 - Brian, I assume you watched "Kraft Theater" on TV. Didn't
that have an effect on the brand of macaroni-and-cheese mix that your
mother bought?

Herb Harrison

--------------------------------
End of [removed] Digest V2002 Issue #329
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