------------------------------
The Old-Time Radio Digest!
Volume 01 : Issue 175
A Part of the [removed]!
ISSN: 1533-9289
Today's Topics:
"Tomorrow the World" [Dennis W Crow <DCrow3@[removed]]
Olan Soule ["Stephen A Kallis, Jr." <skallisjr@]
Monkey See, Monkey Do? ["Stephen A Kallis, Jr." <skallisjr@]
Marilyn Monroe ["Martin Grams, Jr." <mmargrajr@hotm]
Please, no more non-Napster/RS Discu ["michael edwards" <medwards_47@hotm]
Re: SONNY BONO Amendment [SanctumOTR@[removed] ]
Ellery Queen [Dan Hughes <danhughes@[removed]; ]
speaking of [removed] ["randy story" <BYGEORGE@[removed]; ]
Move Over [removed] comes Televis ["Dennis Cotter" <cotter@[removed]]
Saint Carl of Amari [Jack A French <otrpiano@[removed]; ]
Re:reply to Mr. Tollin [Eric Cooper <ejcooper2001@[removed];]
RADIO -RELATED 16MM FILMS ["Owens Pomeroy" <opomeroy@[removed]; ]
Snake Dance [George Aust <austhaus1@[removed]]
Fran Allison ["A. Joseph Ross" <lawyer@[removed].]
Olan Soule ["A. Joseph Ross" <lawyer@[removed].]
Copyrights [OTRChris@[removed] ]
hot lips [Michael Berger <intercom1@attglobal]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 22:31:19 -0400
From: Dennis W Crow <DCrow3@[removed];
To: OTR Digest <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: "Tomorrow the World"
Harlan Stone mentioned the play, "Tomorrow the World," which opened in
early 1943 on Broadway. No play received an award that year from the New
York Drama Critics Circle, but John Chapman of "The Daily News" voted it
the best play of the year. That would not necessarily be news, but
"Tomorrow the World" opened the same year as Lillian Hellman's "The
Searching Wind." Hellman's play lost because of the one vote for
"Tomorrow the World." [ THE NEW YORK TIMES DIRECTORY OF THE THEATER: New
York Times Company, 1973] . The play obviously was good and deserved its
more than one year on the road with Paul McGrath, Harlan Stone, and
company.
.As Harlan mentioned, the Broadway original starred Ralph Bellamy, whose
1979 autobiography, WHEN THE SMOKE HITS THE FAN (Doubleday), discusses
"Tomorrow the World." It has a radio connection.
In Bellamy's words, "At the end of 1943 the Blue Network acquired a new
president by the name of Nolan. They produced an elaborate New Year's Day
program from New York, representing all phases of our society and culture
and peering into 1944. I was on the program because I was in "Tomorrow the
World." (p. 187).
Bellamy writes, "The play concerned a true incident of the effort by
America to rehabilitate Nazi youths by bringing them over here into
American homes. In reality, the effort upon which the play was based was
unsuccessful and the people who'd 'adopted' the Nazi boy sent him back to
Germany. The Nazi indoctrination had penetrated too deep." (p, 186)
Until Harlan mentioned it, I had never heard of this play. Nor had I heard
of America's efforts to rehabilitate Nazi youth. Skip (Skippy) Homeier
played the boy's role on Broadway and I am assuming this is the part that
Harlan assumed on tour.
We all know Harlan Stone as a good actor, and I am delighted he is
contributing to this forum. This theatrical part, given the tenor of the
times and eventually what Bellamy describes happens to the youth, must have
been an incredibly difficult character to sustain. It is certainly to
Harlan Stone's credit that he lasted a year in the role.
I am wondering if Harlan desires to comment about his work with this play.
I hope it's not one of those things he is reserving for his book which he
has already told us he is writing. I am particularly interested in how
audiences reacted to his characterization.
Dennis Crow
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 22:31:30 -0400
From: "Stephen A Kallis, Jr." <skallisjr@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Olan Soule
Dave Phaneuf asks, of Olan Soule,
Didn't Olan Soule also have one of the lead roles in the 1950's TV
version of Captain Midnight?
He was "Tut, the Science Wizard."
On the radio version of Captain Midnight (the "real" one), he was Kelly,
SS-11, the usual channel to major Steele.
Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 22:32:57 -0400
From: "Stephen A Kallis, Jr." <skallisjr@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Monkey See, Monkey Do?
Andrew Emmerson., speaking of copyrights, notes,
Under European law, and I suspect American law, a new copyright is
created when material that
was previously out of copyright is re-packaged.
As noted, the package design can be copyrighted, additions can be
copyrighted ([removed], the colorization of a monochrome Public Domain film),
and the like, but the _original work_ can't. Hypothetically, suppose
there was an OTR production of Aristophenes' The Birds that fell into
Public Domain. Someone discovers an old transcription disk of this and
records from it. A copy of this recording is acquired by an audio
company that transfers it to CD, creates a really neat jewel-case
carrier, with nice artwork. All the wrappings of the package could be
copyright, but not the original sounds.
.. anyone who then uses this 'pressing' to run off further copies is
guilty of copyright theft. That's fact and I suspect this is the basis on
which certain parties are now claiming their products are copyright.
I doubt this is the basis of certain Cease & Desist letters. The OTR
shows were in circulation long before "major companies" issued copies.
It is highly unlikely that the dealers being contacted were so
unscrupulous as to buy stuff from a "major manufacturer" with the express
purpose of reselling the sound. Nor are the other dealers copying
artwork, packaging, etc. This makes this argument a little specious.
Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 22:34:00 -0400
From: "Martin Grams, Jr." <mmargrajr@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Marilyn Monroe
Dan Panke asked:
Did Marilyn Monroe ever do any radio broadcasts?
She sure did. She didn't do as much as some Hollywood stars, but here's a
partial list:
MARILYN MONROE
The Lux Radio Theatre (2/24/47) ėKittyî with Paulette Goddard and Patrick
Knowles.
The Charlie McCarthy Show ([removed]) I have the exact date in a log
somewhere, but not on hand.
Hollywood Star Playhouse (8/31/52) ėStatement in Fullî - This script was
later performed with Joan Crawford in the role, and on radio's SUSPENSE in
mid-1950s.
The Martin and Lewis Show (2/24/53) Monroe was guest on the show.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 22:33:59 -0400
From: "michael edwards" <medwards_47@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Please, no more non-Napster/RS Discussions
Had to get my two cents in here. I think the Napster/RS thread is one of
the most interesting threads to pop up in months. It's so informative, and
really impacts the future of OTR. What I can't believe is that other people
would completely ignore this issue, and instead post on other boring topics.
Geez, I mean do we really need one more welcome to Harry Bartell or one
more gush for Liz McLeod? [removed] already! This list should be all
copyright, all the time!
The preceding paragraph was completely ridiculous. But, no more so than
those missives fired by those who wish to stifle the Napster/RS thread. I,
and many others, find the thread interesting. If you don't, skip it.
Better yet, take the iniative and do what some other posters who are
obviously uninterested have done: Start non Napster/RS discussions. The
list is big enough for all OTR-related discussion, which this is. Why would
anyone want to stop a discussion, just because they personally weren't
interested in it?
Michael Edwards
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 22:34:40 -0400
From: SanctumOTR@[removed]
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Re: SONNY BONO Amendment
In a message dated 6/6/01 7:02:29 AM, Michael Biel writes:
All of this has happened because most copyrights are corporate held and
these corporations and their industry lobbying groups have a very strong
presence in the hallways of our Capitol building. One of the most
recent extensions was passed by Congress to honor one of their fallen
colleagues--one of the greatest recording artists of the 20th century,
an outstanding politician, and a skillful skier----------Sonny
Bono??????????? This gives you an idea of how easily our legislators can be
swayed by a lot of money, lavish parties, and a hint of glamorous stars in
their
midst. The USERS of copyrighted material--meaning us--had no say in this
matter. <SNIP> The Public Good be damned. What is good for BUSINESS is all
that is
important, because Business is where the Re-Election Fund money can be
found.
All this sob-story about copyrights protecting the composers
and writers is hogwash. Remember, most copyrights are corporate held.
***Mr. Biel hasn't mentioned that one of the elements of Sonny Bono Amendment
provided a means for composers, authors, creators and their immediate
families to regain copyrights. The amendment recognized that creators who
had been forced to sign work-for-hire agreements (selling their copyrights)
had done so with the understanding that copyrights were only valid for a
maximum of 56 years (the original 28 year term plus one renewal period). The
Bono Amendment provided the opportunity for the original creators, their
widows and dhildren to take back the copyright after the original 56 years
was up, and by a simple act of application without having to sue.
This was reportedly done by Jerry Siegel's widow and daughter. According to
internet reports of a year or so ago, they had done so and now may own 50% of
the Superman copyright. (Joe Shuster died without a widow or children so his
half of the creation is apparently safely held by DC comics and its parent
company, AOL Time Warner.) There were also unconfirmed reports at the time
that Siegel's heirs had rejected a $6 million buyout offer, and there are
reports that Joe Simon has filed a similar aplication for the copyright on
Marvel's Captain America.
The amendment apparently only affects properties that were created
independently, exempting many comic, radio and Hollywood creations that were
created by a committee of staff editors. Some characters, like Superman and
Captain America were created by independent writer artists and later sold.
(In the case of Superman, after five years of rejections from other
publishers who had a chance to pick up the character.) Apparently, the
amendment has a time limit (two years?) within which such applications must
be filed after the original term expires. It would have been nice if Fran
Striker's family had been aware of such provisions and had been able to
reacquire the LONE RANGER copyright or a major portion of it.
So there appear to be portions of the Sonny Bono Amendment that are not in
the best interests of corporations but were enacted with a standard of
fairness to creators and their families. Will Rogers said it best 70 years
back: "America has the best politicians that money can buy." All too often,
money does. But portions of the amendment appear to have been enacted
because there was a very likeable celebrity in Congress, the balk of whose
income came from music copyrights that would one day become public domain and
be targets for unauthorized publication. I suspect that Bono's presence as a
creator/composer may have conteracted some of those lasvish parties and
campaign funds given by corporations.
You point out that the users of copyrighted material had no say in the
matter. Personally, I think the creators themselves . . . and their
immediate families . . . deserve more say in the protection of their
creations than bystanders and especially Napster. People are living longer
these days, and I would prefer to see elderly creators and their spouses and
children sharing in the profits.
Napster hasn't paid creators/composers/musicians/authors for their work.
Napster wasn't responsible in any way for the creation of such products. A
lot has been written on this list about Radio Spirits' claim to all the
programs they release. The fact is, a lot of creators, stars, families of
stars, etc. are receiving income from RSI, and RSI has invested a lot into
the promotion of OTR. Napster has not.
Perhaps a better focus to this discussion is not which shows RSI has rights
to, but that Napster has NOT paid for rights to any of them. Why not hold
Napster up to the same standards listers are asking of RSI?
Again, the above comments are made by me as an independent freelance writer
and not as a representative of RSI (which I am not). --ANTHONY TOLLIN***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 22:35:10 -0400
From: Dan Hughes <danhughes@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Ellery Queen
Jim Strouf sez:
I always kept track of which shows of mine were downloaded. The winner
by far was Ellery Queen. That totally
surprises me.
Not me. Because the huge majority of people who use(d) Napster were not
OTR buffs. They would not recognize names like Lum and Abner or My
Favorite Husband, but Ellery Queen is quite well-known outside the OTR
field.
---Dan, [removed]~dan (spiffy home page, with OTR links)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 22:35:48 -0400
From: "randy story" <BYGEORGE@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: speaking of [removed]
hi folks.
as an infrequent contributor to, but an avaracious reader of, this OTR
board, i have found the recent "battle" concerning RSI/ NAPSTER both
enlightening and annoying. i will not add my two cents regarding the subject
itself because my voice on the subject would not approach the eloquence i
have seen demonstrated herein these last few days. wow!
there.
i wrote [removed] i feel releived to have done so.
with that said, i have a small question concerning a related [removed] that
i HOPE will not touch off another jihad(holy war) over rights and the like.
i teach theatre in a small community in missouri and i find that my students
tend to relate well to two things: OTR and THE TWILIGHT ZONE. as such, i
feel that we could produce short plays based on episodes from some OTR
series(not recreations) as well as the TZ. these would be for our local
community and eventually i would be able to offer them in play
catalogues.(this is where the idea has thorns).
my question is: where do i begin to find out if i can legally do this?
one would suspect the original author of the material, but judging from the
knowledge i have obtained here in the last several postings, i fear that may
be incorrect. would i contact CBS about the TZ and GUNSMOKE or other
parties?
i hope that some of our more knowledgeable posters might be able to help me
with this issue.
thanks.
i would appreciate any help with this matter either through a board posting
or private email.
sincerely,
randy("i-hope-i haven't-ruffled-any-feathers") story
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 23:00:50 -0400
From: "Dennis Cotter" <cotter@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Move Over [removed] comes Television
Just received an unsolicited email from "Radio Spirits"
seems they want to to sell me their discounted TV Video Episodes.
Of Bonanza, Man From Uncle, and the Like.
I don't remember watching any of those shows on Radio before.!
Does this mean now that anyone selling any Old TV Series Episodes
on Video Tape will received a nasty "letter from the RS lawyers"
claiming copyright infringment?
~ Dennis Cotter
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 23:11:04 -0400
From: Jack A French <otrpiano@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Saint Carl of Amari
We've read several comments of folks who appreciate Carl Amari. But the
strongest applause comes from Mike Ray who nominates Carl for induction
into the Radio Hall of Fame, apparently based upon Carl's sainted
generosity, good will, love of OTR, and kindly care of all his customers.
Ray's praise caused me to feel a warm, rosy glow which almost eliminated
all of my uncomfortable memories of dear ol' Carl.
I can recall Carl first appearing at the Newark FOTR Convention many years
ago, a smiling lad, with cheek of tan, throwing his arm around all the OTR
dealers, praising, and buying, their tapes. He had lists of missing shows
which the dealers scrambled to find for this enthusiastic kid. Carl was
even at my table a few times at the Newark FOTR banquet, and I remember
thinking: "This young fellow will have an impact on our hobby." (How right
I was!)
Since then, I've talked to many dealers who were so pleased to find, and
then sell, all their special holdings to this fine young man who seemed to
have boundless energy and piles of money. Sound quality was no big concern
to ol' Carl. "I'll get my people to clean these up" he told the dealers,
with a friendly jab in the ribs.
So we flash forward about 12 years, and ol' Carl is the Big Boopah of OTR,
claiming, but never proving, that he has acquired exclusive rights to
virtually any series that every other OTR dealer could have in inventory.
Moreover, his legal staff of hired guns generate reams of vague "Cease &
Desist" orders that terrify most OTR dealers (including all the ones who
helped him in the past) but somehow thse court bullets never say exactly
which shows ol' Carl is claiming he owns, nor his legal basis for such
claims.
Jack French
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:20:21 -0400
From: Eric Cooper <ejcooper2001@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Re:reply to Mr. Tollin
I understand Mr. Tollin's position and views, in spite of his disclaimer
about not speaking for RS.
I believe my legal standing in recording shows obtained off the internet
for my own personal use ONLY, is the same legal position that anyone who
uses a VCR to tape a favorite movie off of Turner Classic Movies or
American Movie Classics is in. To apply royalty arguments to those folks
would be ludicrous and the same should go for the brave new world of MP3's
for PERSONAL USE.
Eric Cooper
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:20:18 -0400
From: "Owens Pomeroy" <opomeroy@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: RADIO -RELATED 16MM FILMS
Before they were available on Video Cassettes, I was a collector of
Radio-Related Vintage Movies of the 30's and 40's on 16mm Sound Film. I had
such shows as Heavenly Days, Buck Benny Rides Again, It's A Joke Son, etc.
and such Cliffhangers as Gangbusters and The Green Hornet, Batman and Drums
Of Fu Manchu.
These films were available through a Fan publication called "THe Big
Reel," which is still in circulation and contained more than [removed] different
films to choose from, and through a Collector's Club, The 16mm Movie Club
It worked similar to the audio tape trades between collectors, as we had our
individual catalogs.
The reason I am mentioning this is that for twenty years or more I was
collecting and trading 16mm Films and there was never a question from any of
the "powers that be" to stop what we were doing. After awhile I ceased to
collect these as the postage rates for shipping these films became outrages,
so I switched to collecting Videos from the same two clubs when they added
them to their inventory.
As far as I know, there has not been any crack down on either one of
these publications, since they are still in business today.
I still have my old Bell & Howell and Kodak projectors, and show films from
my more than 30 in my collection every once in awhile at the local Senior
Center. Just like a Movie Show!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:20:13 -0400
From: George Aust <austhaus1@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Snake Dance
When Grahm Newton posted his plea for help in identifying this tune, I
sang it to my wife from the notes he include. She knew it immediately
and not only that she sang the words to it. Yes there are words (I
wouldn't call them lyrics). Here for your edification are the words she
learned in Jr. High school.
"There's a place in France.
where the women wear no pants;
And the men walk around,
with their ***** hanging down."
Now she says that she is not censoring the word but that she doesn't
remember it.
As for me I have no comment!
George Aust
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:20:11 -0400
From: "A. Joseph Ross" <lawyer@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Fran Allison
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 07:56:42 -0400
From: "mutineer" <mutineer@[removed];
Changing the subject now, I have one question for the group. When I was a
kid, my favorite lady was Fran Allison. Was she ever in other radio shows
besides Breakfast Club?
I don't know about radio shows, but she was a regular on the pioneer kids
TV show "Kukla, Fran, and Ollie."
A. Joseph Ross, [removed] [removed]
15 Court Square lawyer@[removed]
Boston, MA 02108-2503 [removed]~lawyer/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:20:09 -0400
From: "A. Joseph Ross" <lawyer@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Olan Soule
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 23:13:04 -0400
From: "David Phaneuf" <dphaneuf@[removed];
Didn't Olan Soule also have one of the lead roles in the 1950's TV version
of Captain Midnight?
Yes. He played the part of Aristotle Jones, or "Tut," the Secret
Squadron's chief scientist. He also had a recurring role as a police
scientist on the TV version of Dragnet. I think he played a similar sort
of scientist type on other shows as well.
What I'd like to know about Captain Midnight is how the Secret Squadron
was funded. On TV, Captain Midnight had an elaborate mountain-top
headquarters with fancy technology, a state of the art jet plane, a car,
and two sidekicks, Icky and Tut, etc. It was never said that he was
wealthy like Bruce Wayne or the Lone Ranger. I assume that only the
government could have afforded to pay for that setup. Did they ever say
on the radio how the Secret Squadron was funded?
A. Joseph Ross, [removed] [removed]
15 Court Square lawyer@[removed]
Boston, MA 02108-2503 [removed]~lawyer/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:20:06 -0400
From: OTRChris@[removed]
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Copyrights
SanctumOTR@[removed] writes:
One lister recently questioned whether Joan Benny, etc. actually owned the
complete rights to their parents' shows. Well, personally, I'd like to think
that Joan and the kids of George and Gracie, Edgar Bergen, etc. were getting
something for the commercial use of their parents' talents.
Maybe we would like to think so but it is hardly likely in most cases. Do
you recall all those TV shows of the 60s ?
How many performers do you think are being paid for their appearances
today?
Paramount owns both STAR TREK and MISSION : IMPOSSIBLE.
I specifically mention these two shows as I have heard stated by Leonard
Nimoy (who was a regular on both series ) that the standard contract
included payment for the initial broadcast and six re-airings. In other
words he hasn't
seen a dime in residuals from these shows in over 30 years. Just appearing
in a program does not give you ownership.
Even the creators and producers of these shows often have given most of the
ownership (if not all ) to the studios .
And when MISSION was resurrected in 1988 as a series on ABC they began to
reshoot old scripts . Not only were the original writers NOT paid they
often were not even credited . That does not mean that every show was like
this . Frankly , it all depended on the specific contract. But today
Martin Landau , Barbara Bain , Leonard Nimoy and George Takei [removed] will
not come knocking on your door for copyright infringement ---Paramount will.
And think about it ... these shows have been released on Video and these
performers do not receive any compensation.
Paramount has guarded these copyrights and contains the negatives in a
vault .
If we look at the OTR situation in the same way we can see why
determining who controls the rights would be more difficult. First off the
recordings (unlike the Paramount situation ) usually were not preserved and
kept in the rights owners protected vault . And furthermore, many of the
recordings only survive because some radio enthusiast recorded it off the air
in 1950. Or what about when the source disc clearly states that the
recording is not intended or licensed for broadcast purposes or was to be
destroyed after airing. Now someone claims rights to this show?
I also find it hard to really fight on behalf of supposed rights holders
who did nothing in the way of preserving these programs. If left to the
original owners these shows would not exist today and the discussion would
be moot.
The Radio Spirits group always comes under attack when copyrights is the
discussed topic mainly because it is perceived that they claim exclusive
rights to OTR programs that many people doubt that they have . And
their failure to identify such shows when writing their cease and desist
letters heightens this perception.
In defense of RS I must say that it is wrong for anyone to reproduce and
mass distribute copies of any re-mastered
RS show . The remastered recording certainly belongs to RS and they
deserve the profits for their effort even of it is a show in the public
domain . However, this does not preclude another distributor from offering
the same public domain show from their own source.
This arguement as to whether or not someone owns such and such should
really move to the next level .
What I mean is that some really good researchers among us should enlighten
the OTR community on how to go about
researching specific ownership and copyrights. Share with us what you know
about the ownership of specific shows.
On a different note :
I recall maybe 15 years ago (perhaps a few years more) I could do a
little dial twisting on my radio and hear various radio stations
broadcasting OTR . Usually in the evening hours (radio fringe time) . The
tapes seemed to be supplied by Hobbyists. I would could hear OTR 7-8 PM on
KTNT Tacoma /9:00-11PM KFBK Sacramento ,KXLY Spokane,
KYXI Oregon City Portland , 11-12pm CKNW Vancouver BC.
It was great . Each station would have their own mix of series with
limited commercial interuptions . But then something happened. Evening radio
became profitable again with National talk programs and again radio said
goodbye to OTR. The hobbyist OTR presentations are practically gone . Now if
I hear OTR I know it must be "When Radio Was ".
So rather than five stations playing a large selection of OTR they are all
playing "When Radio Was" . And "When Radio
Was" being a syndicated program for a national market it does not quite have
the freedom of locally aired OTR.
(ie ... more commercial interuptions , and less time for content in the
hour).
But on a positive note it seems like OTR is much more available than it used
to be. (ie via radio clubs and dealers) And for that I am happy : )
-Chris
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:20:04 -0400
From: Michael Berger <intercom1@[removed];
To: otr <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: hot lips
I remember that voice on the Durante show. Now I wonder: who did
that voice?
Speaking of which: listened to an old Gildy show recently and
when his maid, Beulah, came on, the audience went bananas. She
was funny, but THAT funny?, I thought. Then I remembered; it
wasn't a black woman speaking, but a white male and now I wonder:
as clever as he was, how come there was no room for an authentic
black actress, like Lilian Randolph, who later played Beulah in
her own show, no?
Michael Berger
--------------------------------
End of [removed] Digest V01 Issue #175
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