Subject: [removed] Digest V2001 #354
From: "OldRadio Mailing Lists" <[removed]@[removed];
Date: 11/5/2001 3:53 PM
To: <[removed]@[removed];

------------------------------


                            The Old-Time Radio Digest!
                              Volume 2001 : Issue 354
                         A Part of the [removed]!
                                 ISSN: 1533-9289


                                 Today's Topics:

  mp3 quality and easy aces             [ "W. Gary Wetstein" <wgaryw@pacbell. ]
  RE: Buck Rogers sound effects         [ "David Kindred" <david@[removed] ]
  mp3 quality (or lack of quality)      [ "[removed]" <swells@[removed]; ]
  Re: Why Mutual Died                   [ Elizabeth McLeod <lizmcl@[removed] ]
  Goon Show                             [ "Doug Leary" <dleary@[removed]; ]
  Snow White on OTR                     [ Robert Fells <rfells@[removed]; ]
  Re: TV vs Radio                       [ OTRChris@[removed] ]
  Did Radio Die? (NO)                   [ Mike Ray <MRay@[removed]; ]
  Values Paying Off                     [ otrbuff@[removed] ]
  Los Angeles crackpot                  [ khovard@[removed] ]
  Ultimate History                      [ JayHick@[removed] ]
  To Infinity and Beyond?               [ "Stephen A Kallis, Jr." <skallisjr@ ]
  Clooney-Crosby Show                   [ "John edwards" <jcebigjohn41@hotmai ]
  Goon Show Sources                     [ Christopher Werner <cwerner@globalc ]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 09:16:59 -0500
From: "W. Gary Wetstein" <wgaryw@[removed];
To: OTR Digest <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: mp3 quality and easy aces

JBeck57143@[removed] wrote:

Maybe the loss of quality due to compression is more of an issue with
recordings that don't sound very good to begin with. A lot of the Easy Aces
shows I have in mp3 format don't sound very good--on some of them it's hard
to make out what's being said. Even if the quality isn't much better on CD
and cassette, maybe it's at least easier to make out what's being said.

i encoded the run of syndicated easy aces programs, and i just had to
respond to this. . .

i take no offense at jbeck's comments, especially since he notes that the
original recordings are often the biggest problem with regard to mp3 sound
quality.  but to clarify, i spent an *enormous* amount of time sound
processing the easy aces mp3s, and i get irate at the general trouncing mp3
technology takes due to lazy encoders.

again, i'm not directing this *at all* at jbeck, but to the commonplace
assumption that if an mp3 does not sound very good, that it's the fault of
mp3 technology. in the case of easy aces, the reels from which the material
came were severely flawed.  there was every sound problem imaginable, from
surface noise to skips, poor equalization to tape hiss, muffled sound to
amplitude clipping, volume drops and speed problems. . .

i can't defend the terrible sounding mp3s glutting the internet, or those
who are more interested in the volume of their collection over the quality.
but in this particular case, i can attest that that the mp3s-- however poor
sounding they may be-- are in much *better* condition than the original
sound of the reels from which they came.  at least, that's true to the best
of my ability to work with some very poor source material, although i'm no
audio expert.  but if the files could be better, then that's *my* fault, and
not the fault of mp3 technology itself.

[on a more specific level, i also want to note that i completely redid the
last 85 episodes (201-285), and the second set was a vast improvement over
the first.  i can only guess that jbeck is referring to the first set of
these encodes, and perhaps missed the second set (just reposted to
[removed], if anyone's interested).]

just to be sure there's no misunderstanding, i want to say again that i'm
not offended by or directing my reply specifically to jbeck's post.  but i
believe in mp3s.  they got me back into OTR after 10 years of disinterest,
and i wholeheartedly feel that careful digitization and sound processing can
actually *improve* the sound of these recordings. unfortunately, sometimes
the source material is so poor that the end result of much hard work can
sound indistinguishable from a lackadaisical effort. . . this is a "throwing
the baby out with the bath water" problem, and i just hope that (a) older
OTR collectors don't dismiss mp3 technology out of hand, and (b) we are able
to improve upon the encodes in circulation with better source material and
more careful digitization in the years to come.

remember, this technology is only a few years old!

regards, and no offense intended,

w. gary wetstein

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:20:01 -0500
From: "David Kindred" <david@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: RE: Buck Rogers sound effects

---Tom Mason wrote:

I was amazed to find out that the sound
of Buck's rocket ship was actually the recorded sound of a flushing toilet
in the cavernous marble walled restroom at ABC radio headquarters.

Are you sure this wasn't for "Flush Gordon"? Sorry, guys, couldn't resist.

--David

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:02:40 -0500
From: "[removed]" <swells@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: mp3 quality (or lack of quality)

 Michael Biel Writes: A copy can be no better than its source.

    Not true, in the sence that you state it. Granted if you use a poor
"master" then there are limitations of what you can do, dependant upon the
how bad it really is. I have taken shows that were no "up to snuff" in my
opinion and went to great lengths to restore and in alot of cases completely
re-mix a show that ends up better than the original source.
    Example of how this is done. Generally I am using open reels as the
source, since even with the transcriptions I have I would first record to
reel. Don't ask why, it's just something that I do.  Anyway, I have found
reels in my own collection that have a low signal problem, excess stactic,
tape hiss, etc. Well, when I run it into the system I pass it through a
pre-amp that will adjust for the low signal. Once it's into the system I use
a parametric equalizer to "even out the sound" and make it more consistant.
With this step you can also begin to remove unwanted noises, etc. After that
I amplify the recording to bring it to a acceptable level. This will make
the ampliification uniform through out the recording. Then starts the
process of removing the stactic, clicks, pops, etc. Once that is done, I
check over the recording to see how it sounds. Depending on what type of
program it is, [removed] musical or mostly voice with sound effects, I will use
up to a 30 band equalizer to bring out those sounds to make them more
prominate. Once that is done I check the recording for any hiss due to the
amplification. In the end if you were to re-record the "new version" back
onto reel and then play the old vs. the new there would be a significant
difference in quality.
    I don't know how many have downloaded The Devil & Mr. O episode that I
posted, but that is an example of this. Granted the master I used was what I
term as a  "broadcast quality" reel that was in great shape, but there ws
little imprefections that I wanted to fix. Plus the fact that I wanted a
complete set on CD for myself to listen to in the car.
    I will say that if the master you are using is really bad, and I mean
nearly unlistenable, then you would be better off getting a better copy
instead, if it's available, then to try to fix it. There are about 30 or so
episodes of the Lum & Abner series I am working on that I will have to
replace for this reason.
    Digital media may not be the end all to end all, but I would say that
has some pretty good advantages over tape of any type. I can say that this
will be the only time that I will transfer my whole collection this way.
It's just too much work and it has been very expensive. 20 years from now I
imagine that something new will be around, but for me this is it. I still
have a few years to go just to finish my collection, but in the end I will
be able to listen to any show I have with much greater ease and with better
results than the original reels, etc.
    You always want to have a plan "B" though, so if any of my CD's fail or
"turn to dust" becasue of a certain alignment of the stars or whatever
reason, I will still have the original source material, if it's still
useable, I can re-make it again.
    Oh, as for the question about radio shows floating out in space ; I
believe in theroy it is true, but I have never heard of anyone actaully ever
hearing something that would otherwise be 50-70 years old. There is a
"lag-time" in recieving transmissions from great distances, this is evident
just from examples when NASA transmits from Earth to the space shuttle.
After nearly 70 or so years of travel I seriously doubt we could ever catch
up to them floating about out there. Who knows, maybe the "space aliens" are
out there "using cylinders and tin cans to record them on."
Shawn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:19:59 -0500
From: Elizabeth McLeod <lizmcl@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Re: Why Mutual Died

A. Joseph Ross wonders,

I can understand how NBC,
CBS, and ABC would have starved their radio networks to divert money to
television.  But what
about Mutual?  It didn't have television to take resources away.

Mutual -- as it was originally configured -- was falling apart by the
early fifties, with its original cooperative structure unable to sustain
itself under the changing economic conditions of its time. The network
had never been a major corporate player in broadcasting -- it was
basically just a way for WOR and WGN to recover program development
costs, and it never made anywhere near the money that the Real Networks
did. Although it boasted the largest number of affiliates by the turn of
the fifties, most of these were low-power rural operations with little to
offer potential national sponsors, and a lot of its programming ended up
being sold on a local co-op basis. There wasn't much money in this for
the network.

Although the major players in Mutual were all active in local television,
the poor financial condition of Mutual itself made any attempt at a TV
network impractical. When General Teleradio bought out most of the Mutual
stockholders one by one in the early fifties, it was to get control of
their local radio and television properties. The new owners had no
interest in the radio network, and the first thing General did when it
got a controlling interest in Mutual in 1952 was to cut affiliate
payments across the board by 30 per cent in all markets served by
television (non-TV markets got a 10 per cent cut), a clear
cut-your-losses-before-selling-out sort of move.

General shut down the original Mutual program service in 1957, and dumped
the picked-over carcass of the network shortly after. Mutual, as it had
existed in the OTR era, was dead the day General Teleradio walked in the
door -- although it would lurch along zombie-style for the next forty
years under various incompetent ownerships before ending up as just
another Westwood One logo.

Elizabeth

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:20:13 -0500
From: "Doug Leary" <dleary@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Goon Show

I currently have over 40 Goon Shows in mp3 format, collected entirely from
file sharing systems such as Napster and Kazaa. Half-hour episodes, about
6-7 Mb each, generally excellent audio. They can readily be found on these
services by searching for "goon". Or send me an email and I will put some
where you can download them.

doug@[removed]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:21:19 -0500
From: Robert Fells <rfells@[removed];
To: old time radio <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Snow White on OTR

Even if you don't have small children, you've probably noticed the
Disney company's promotional efforts for the release of its two-disc DVD
"Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs."  I think it would literally take a
person days to view all the material but some real treasures for OTR
fans are found on disc two.  Two excerpts from Lux Radio Theater,
9/28/36 and 12/20/37 respectively, offer host Cecil B. DeMille
interviewing Walt Disney. The second Lux broadcast takes place on the
night prior to the film's premiere.

Speaking of "Snow White's" premiere, the DVD also contains the complete
(apparently) half-hour live remote in front of the Carthay Circle
Theater in Los Angeles on 12/21/37, hosted by Don Wilson.  Of note to
OTR fans is the appearance of Amos and Andy; in fact, "Amos" is
introduced as Freeman Gosden but he goes right into character calling
"Andy" over to the microphone.  Then they introduce their children who
say a few words.  One child is named Virginia.  I wondered if this is
some sort of "rediscovered "A'n'A" broadcast?   (I can bet on reply from
Elizabeth).

The hazards of live remotes are evident as Don Wilson introduces the
orchestra playing a song from the film only to be informed that another
song will be played instead.  Unruffled, Mr. Wilson simply says, "Oh,
we're changing that?" and introduces the other song.  This is what I
love about hearing live broadcasts and dearly miss with "transcribed"
shows.

Another treat on the DVD is the complete half-hour "Mickey Mouse Theater
of the Air" broadcast from Sunday, January 9, 1938.  Hosted by Walt
Disney himself, who also does Mickey Mouses's voice, the show presents a
condensed version of the "Snow White" film complete with Lucille LaVerne
(remember her in the1935 film, "A Tale of Two Cities"?) repeating her
role as the evil Queen/Witch.  Even radio commercials promoting the film
are provided.  All that's missing is Jack Benny's spoof, "Snow White and
the Seven Gangsters" with Andy Devine as an improbable Prince Charming.

Oh yeah, the "Snow White" movie is on the DVD too!

Bob Fells

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:22:47 -0500
From: OTRChris@[removed]
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Re:  TV   vs  Radio

Stephen A. Kallis, Jr. writes

But it's worth reiterating that not everyone has the same tastes. Some
people's treasures were other people's
junk.

That is certainly the case . However, one can like a show and still realize
that the quality is poor. On the other hand I realize that many of the
current dramas in TV are well written, well acted and well produced. Quality
dramas in line for the Emmy . Having said that I still won't watch them
because they are simply boring as heck . Seen it all before ! All these shows
share one plot line and are simply about everyday relations.
I want imaginitive stories . Something exciting . These shows are not it for
me. But they are quality dramas.

A. Joseph Ross, [removed]  writes:

After they got the TV, they didn't listen in the evening any more.

Radio and TV are far apart .It has been stated that radio never had the
zombie like effect to the extreme that TV does. For example people did not
sit and strictly listen to radio for 7 hours each day .
They tuned to their favorite shows and still read newspapers , magazines and
played games. More of a varied existence.
TV has become the cornerstome of  home life for so many these days. Most
people tend to get all of their  news , information and entertainment right
out of that black box. 6 and 7 hours a day are spent by the masses doing
nothing but watching TV . To me that is incredible . I for one would get
restless!

But you see we have to understand it is not about radio vs. TV . Or even
movies , newpapers [removed]
We all clearly know that as far as detailed news reporting on issues is
concerned the newspapers do a far better job than TV . However, most people
still get their news from TV. Those individuals probably do not care to know
anything more than the quick news they get from TV. This relates to radio
this way :
A few of us are amazed at some of the exciting and well produced stories that
radio had to offer. We cannot understand why someone would think that a
current TV story is superior to some of those radio stories. Quite simply
...they are not. But even if those same radio shows were to become TV shows
they would probably not become highly watched TV shows. In fact they were not
highly listened to radio shows at the time .  But that does not take away
from their greatness. Simple comedy
and lighthearted drama/ adventure shows always pull in the most viewers. Some
of the programs within this category are able to become pretty good shows.
But they are still from this category.
The TV shows in the 60s that offered expansive imaginitive productions that
are classics today were not highly watched.  ([removed] the Twilight Zone). Even
the early Star Trek and Mission: Impossible episodes were outstanding for
their time but with few viewers. All those strange men in outer space and a
complex spy drama were too much for the average viewer to pay attention to .
But these programs are very special to their audience . That is where we get
to radio . The best radio like a really good book is not for the masses but
rather for a core group of people who can  enjoy following along, using their
imaginations to experience  a special kind of tale. Books and radio are for
those people. I do not expect radio to be entertainment for the [removed]
just as I would be concerned if there were no longer any story books to read
I am concerned about the neglect of radio drama. Through the web I actually
have found that many groups are still producing radio dramas. Pretty good
stuff I imagine. But there is not any great publicity so few people  know
about them.
Through  WRVO  I am getting the chance to hear a few of them. A sprinkling of
modern radio productions mixed into the OTR schedule really is a great way to
program these shows. Modern Radio drama  fails because it is not regularly
scheduled and fails to get an audience for that reason. A TV show could not
maintain an audience if it was scheduled in that manner. That is the  reason
why so many recall the CBS radio Mystery Theater . It was there for so many
nights for so many years.

Let us not talk about bringing radio back and why the masses wont listen with
us . Let us rather talk about what we would like to hear and what we can do
to have
great shows for ourselves and perhaps when we get what we want others will
fall in by accident.


-Chris

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:35:08 -0500
From: Mike Ray <MRay@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Did Radio Die? (NO)

Recently our friend "macandrew" stated.
"Did radio die prematurely? I think so."

My respectful response would be a resounding
no. Radio never died. it is just a viable and has
more listeners now (number wise) than ever
[removed], let us put to rest once and for,
all that talk, that Radio drama left the airways
on Sunday September 30, 1962. It is just not
true. The Pacific Garden Mission is now in it's
51st year of producing "Unshackled." It established
it's own Independent distribution Network in
1958, and today is heard on over 900 stations
world wide. The Moody Bible Radio Network is
now in it's 54th year of broadcasting, "Stories
of Great Christians." These Broadcast are heard
5 days a week on over 1,000 stations world wide.
MBR also broadcast the kids adventure drama
"Ranger Bill" every Saturday morning, as they have
since 1953. Let's not forget The Adventures in Odyssey.
That program has been going strong since 1987. Of
curse that's not counting all the other programs that
we enjoyed after 1962, like the CBS Mystery theater,
or the Sears Theater, and many [removed] my
friend, Radio drama never died. And I can't imagine
that it ever will.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 12:10:37 -0500
From: otrbuff@[removed]
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Values Paying Off

I've enjoyed the thread about how the fortunes of radio dissolved into
television at mid twentieth century and especially the tales of some
individuals who made that transition.  I'll take this opportunity to
contribute mine.

My parents instilled a number of values in me that have stuck across the
years.  One that they practiced faithfully was a conviction that you
never bought anything you couldn't (and didn't) pay cash for.  I know of
only three times they violated that cardinal rule in our home and that
was for the three houses they owned in their lifetimes.  Each time they
acquired a new mortgage, they earmarked every extra dollar they could put
their hands on for additional payments on the house note, over and above
what was required.  Somehow those 30-year payments got done in maybe half
the time.  Meanwhile, they owned no means of transportation until they
had been married for many years.  In 1948 dad was able to purchase a
Plymouth coupe.  He told me he paid $1600 cash for it out of savings.  We
were never hungry or cold or in desperate need for anything.  The
necessities were plentiful and I was materially content.

Consequently, when TV arrived, it appeared that just about everyone we
knew made the leap from radio to TV without hesitation.  My parents
hesitated.  They didn't have the cash to pay for a set so for several
years I went to neighbors' homes to watch Howdy Doody and The Lone Ranger
and other children's favorites.  Toward the mid 1950s I began
impersonating Jackie Gleason for my father, who had always appreciated
comedians.  I don't think to this day I ever saw him laugh as hard, and
he had never seen "And away we go" done to Ray Bloch's "little traveling
music" nor Ralph Kramden and Joe the Bartender and Reggie Van Gleason and
The Poor Soul, etc., except through me.  It was then he decided to take
some of whatever was in savings and invest it in a 12-inch Westinghouse
black-and-white set.  Long after every other kid on the block had TV, it
finally came to our house, as a direct result of my ability to market
Gleason.

But that wasn't the end of the story.  Even though we loved our new TV
and sometimes watched in the early days from test pattern to that little
glowing light when you shut it off after the limited programming schedule
ended for the day, we didn't forget our radio.  My mother regularly tuned
in daytime shows like Arthur Godfrey Time and Art Linkletter's House
Party and some of the soap operas.  And, until they disappeared, we
continued to hear The Lone Ranger, Sky King, Suspense, Johnny Dollar and
other evening favorites.  Monitor was a staple at our house on weekends.

So to mom and dad's insistence on paying cash upfront, a practice I have
continued to this day, there was for me an added benefit:  I know it
contributed heavily to my ongoing love of radio.  While most of my
friends forgot about Let's Pretend and Gene Autry's Melody Ranch and
Tarzan and The FBI in Peace & War and The Great Gildersleeve, etc.,
moving on to Milton Berle, Sid Caesar & Imogene Coca and whatever else
came down the tube, I maintained a strong preference for radio.  I feel
fortunate for having had that privilege and am certain today I wasn't
deprived.

Jim Cox

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 12:17:27 -0500
From: khovard@[removed]
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Los Angeles crackpot

I am trying to locate an obituary for a crackpot named Myron Fagan who
may have been involved wiht the production of Red Channels in 1950. Fagan
died on May 12, 1972 ( I think he died in LA). Can anybody help me?

Howard Blue

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 12:43:05 -0500
From: JayHick@[removed]
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Ultimate History

My Second Revised Ultimate History is now available.  Details are on my web
page.

<[removed];

If you bought the 1996 version and the supplements, contact me first for a
possible discounted price.  Jay Hickerson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:26:45 -0500
From: "Stephen A Kallis, Jr." <skallisjr@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: To Infinity and Beyond?

Jer 51473 notes,

I seem to recall that some years ago there were reports or claims that
signals had been picked up of programs that were from years past that
were still moving in the universe and it may be that signals never stop
traveling.

This is one of those things that seem okay on paper but don't really
work.  In theory, if a radio signal is transmitted from an airless
planet, its wavefronts would expand forever throughout the cosmos.
However, with real radio signals in the cosmos as we know it, there are
lots of problems with the concept.  First, most of the radio signals of
the period were more or less confined to the atmosphere.  Some,
particularly in the FM (and TV, for that matter) band, could escape.
Again, these, in theory, could travel "forever."

But even for those radio signals that _did_ escape, the signal strength
diminishes exponentially.  Let's say that for argument's sake, an
astronaut in the surface of the Moon gets a signal that has a strength of
1 Watt.  If Mars is at its closest (48 million miles), then the signal
strength reaching a radio on the planet would be on the order of three
hundred thousandths of a Watt.  By the time the signal reaches the edges
of the solar system, say, about the orbit of Pluto, the signal strength
is on the order of six hundred-millionths of a Watt.  At this point,
we're talking about light-hours (1 light-hour is the tome it takes light
to travel for an hour, about 670 million miles).  Now imagine the signal
strength that traveled for some 50 light _years_.  The signal gets
incredibly weak, practically unmeasurable.

Hiowever, this isn't the worst.  For various reasons, stars like the Sun
output radiation on the radio bands, and these "noise" signals from the
stars would drown out the signal.

So it's highly unlikely that if anyone develops a faster-than-light
spacecraft and zips out far enough, that they could "recapture" lost OTr
shows.

Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:29:43 -0500
From: "John edwards" <jcebigjohn41@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Clooney-Crosby Show

Being a new subscriber to OTR Digest, I don't know if anyone has asked about
this show or others from the very late 1950's to 1962. Apparently the show
ran from 22960 to maybe late 1962. I recently traded for a large run of
the show. I sort of recall the show being on CBS during the morning hours
(weekdays)..20 mins each. On each show they would do promos for other CBS
programs.  My question is are there significant runs of some of these other
shows available for trading or purchase?  The show apparently followed the
Garry Moore-Durwood Kirby Program because they always thanked Garry &
Durwood for turning the CBS Radio Network to them.  Other shows I remember
listening to during this same time frame were Arthur Godfrey, Art
Linkletter's Houseparty, Amos 'n Andy Musichall(in the evening), Carol
Burnette & somebody else (she sang on the show).   There are a few of the
Amos 'n Andy musichall around but I'm not aware of much or any of the other
[removed] it just lack of interest in the shows or that no recordings of
them survived?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:59:02 -0500
From: Christopher Werner <cwerner@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Goon Show Sources

George Archer asks:

 >Where would I find on air copies of The Goon Show that the BBC produced in
 >the 1950's and were replayed here in the DC area (WETA) on Sundays in the
 >1960's?

Among the OTR clubs both RHAC (Colorado) and ORCA have many Goon show
recordings available for rent. The BBC also has Goon shows on CD for purchase.

The best source for information on the Goon shows (that I found) was at the
following URL

[removed]

Have fun.

Chris

--------------------------------
End of [removed] Digest V2001 Issue #354
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