------------------------------
The Old-Time Radio Digest!
Volume 2002 : Issue 205
A Part of the [removed]!
ISSN: 1533-9289
Today's Topics:
MP3 DEBATE [ "Ian Grieve" <ian@[removed] ]
#OldRadio IRC Chat this Thursday Nig [ lois@[removed] ]
MP3 giveaway [ "Richard Carpenter" <sinatra@raging ]
MP3 DEBATE [ "Ian Grieve" <ian@[removed] ]
Re: CBS Radio Mystery Theater on tap [ "Rodney w bowcock jr." <rodney-self ]
Re: Voice Tracking [ "John Sellards" <johnsellards@chart ]
RioVolt MP3 Players [ George Guffey <grguffey@[removed]; ]
Distinctive Voices [ "Mark E. Higgins" <paul_frees_fan@a ]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 20:44:15 -0400
From: "Ian Grieve" <ian@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: MP3 DEBATE
In issue 201 Jim Widner raised some great points:
I will be the first to admit that I am listening to more otr since I began
listening via mp3 than the years prior (partly because I collect first on
reels,
which obviously are not conducive to casual listening).
mp3 is ideal for listening. It is not a format for restoration, serious
archiving or serious collecting and should not be considered for any of
those purposes. It is purely the popular format for listening at the moment.
Ian has put forth a passionate and good argument for mp3 and has attempted
to justify the "all for free" attitude mostly coming from the Usenet side
of the Internet in the "alt binaries" groups.
I have to disagree with you here Jim and agree with you at the same time. I
do not attempt to justify the "all for free" attitude. I strongly disagree
with that attitude, which means that ultimately we agree. I do not believe
that all otr should be free. I believe that mp3 should be free, but not
reels, cassettes, transcriptions, the restoration works of Shawn or Ted or
anybody else who are working in Audio formats other than mp3.
I also understand people like Shawn Wells who make huge effort at their own
expense
to produce clean copies of mp3 shows and sell them for a cost. (I
understand, but
am not sure of his wanting a "contract" signed that they will not post the
shows).
Shawn is normally working in audio format. The recent discussion on the
$[removed] fee and contract were on shows that were spread across a large
number of L&A Audio CDs that Shawn had restored. They were not in mp3
format. Shawn has made mp3 copies in the past that he uploaded to
Newsgroups for people to share and that was spoilt by some persons then
selling them on e-bay, not the mp3 community.
The issue of producing excellent quality shows such as what First
Generation is
doing in non-compressed format - only to find someone has compressed and
posted them
- is a real problem that in my opinion will never go away without some kind
of legal battle or through their controlled membership (back to Radio
Spirits own approach).
I am not sure, whoever got those shows and turned them into mp3 had to be a
paying member. The majority of the mp3 community are listeners. They do
not buy from Dealers, they do not trade with collectors, they do not spend
money on the hobby except with their ISP and Blank CDs, they do not pay
membership with clubs. That is why I think the finger of doom being pointed
at the mp3 community is misdirected. The general mp3 community is not
taking money out of anyone's pockets because they would never have being
putting any in there in the first place. Obviously I am being very general
in such a statement but that is what it comes down to.
The people who want a box with a fancy picture on it and a booklette with
details of the show etc will continue to buy from Radio $$ because they are
providing that service. The people who want audio on cassettes, reels and
CDs and buy them from or trade with Dealers will continue to buy and trade
them from Dealers, because the mp3 community do not trade in audio, they
trade in mp3.
I agree with Ian about the community of otr and I do think there is a place
for mp3. However, I still contend and am on record of this, that there are
those within the mp3 community who are and will continue to hurt the hobby
to the point that we will see previously unreleased shows dry up.
Jim, Shawn tells me the same thing. Of all the points made against mp3 this
is the one point I do not understand. How does mp3 sharing hurt the hobby
and make shows dry up? Because someone will sell them on e-bay is the usual
answer. Well I can tell you that the mp3 share community is as much against
e-bay selling of mp3 as any dealer and collector. Even the statement made
by Harlan a couple of days ago about the collector who wants to share but is
concerned that copies will be sold on e-bay, was pointed at the mp3
community. But it is not the mp3 community. It is simply some people who
want to make a few bucks out of selling something that has cost them
virtually nothing, unfortunately the format they use is mp3 so the whole mp3
community gets the blame. What we should be doing is working out a way of
stopping them.
I can only refer to situations such as the recent attempt led by Ted
Davenport and Radio
Memories to bring previously unreleased Fu Manchu episodes to the
community. Ted was willing to buy the discs, clean them up and ready for
others to share at an investment that included Ted's costs plus effort
spent. No sooner had these shows been released to those who subscribed when
they suddenly were turned into mp3's and uploaded for all to get free of
charge.
So it had to be one of the subscribers I guess. Not to take away from what
happened, obviously the subscription took place so Ted got his costs back or
he wouldn't have released them. What is the complaint in this scenario?
That someone breached Ted's trust? That they were turned into mp3? Sold on
e-bay?
Obviously if someone breached Ted's trust that is the wrong thing to do, but
not something to condem the whole mp3 community for, that is a moral problem
of a single person. Ted deserved his return on his investment, but again
the mp3 community enmass would not have provided the funds for that to
happen, so Ted did not lose any sales because they were converted to mp3 and
distributed. Certainly someone let him down. I don't have to repeat my
feelings on mp3 e-bay sellers.
This is the real problem with mp3 and the "free for all" attitude that is
becoming more pervasive. mp3s are not inherently bad (when encoded well)
and there are certainly many in the community (such as I believe Ian is
trying to say) who have a positive approach.
There is no doubt there is a "free for all" attitude. What those of us in
all areas of the hobby need to do is lay some ground rules and educate
people joining the hobby. As I mentioned a couple of days ago, Elizabeth is
respected in all areas of the hobby and takes the time to explain to people
and answer questions. There needs to be more like her that are willing to
educate and explain. No one will ever overcome the percentage of deliberate
"free for all" behaviour, but the vast majority who do it out of ignorence
or lack of understanding will gladly fall into step.
The changing value of otr and the reluctance to share because of monetary
value I cannot change. That again is a moral question which has to be
decided by that collector or collectors The fact that a show is available
on mp3 should not diminish the value of a transcription copy, nor the value
of a professional cleanup and encode by someone like Shawn and others. mp3
should be considered a format for casual listening not serious collecting.
What to do is certainly a good question? I don't have the answer, but I
cannot fault those who are reluctant to part with their precious rare shows
or those who do not want to invest anymore to make the shows available to
those willing to pay. Sadly, perhaps digital marking, legal battles or
controlled memberships will be the only way.
What to do IS a good question, I don't have all the answers, but I can see
all areas of the hobby working together, we just need to overcome some
misconceptions on several fronts. In Australia we don't have the long
Dealer/Collector/Selling history that you have in the [removed] Sure we have
collectors who have been collecting for donkey's years, but we have been
able to blend mp3 and serious collecting and preservation simply by treating
mp3 as a free "listening only" and sharing medium. It doesn't get in the
way of 'real' collecting/trading.
mp3 trading should not interfere with trading and selling. I hear some
people say how bad the quality of mp3s are on one hand and say that those
same poor quality encodes are interfering with trading and selling of rare
shows. How can that be? Surely the people trading and selling are not
interested in poor quality mp3 copies? if so, they can find them on e-bay
:)
lol, I don't know how I got to be spokesman for the mp3 community. My
e-mail is full of people agreeing with me, but I don't know why they can't
say that here. I just started by putting my thoughts into words when I felt
that the mp3 community was being blamed for what the e-bay mp3 sellers are
getting up to. I think if everybody took a deep breath and thought about it
a bit more, they will see that mp3 and audio collectors can work together,
just that some rules have to be made and adhered to. I am sorry Ted if you
feel the mp3 community let you down because someone on your subscription
list did the wrong thing by you. Both Jim and Shawn hit me with that story
today so it is certainly doing the rounds as a reason blame mp3 and the mp3
community.
Ian Grieve
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 04:52:06 -0400
From: lois@[removed]
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: #OldRadio IRC Chat this Thursday Night!
A weekly [removed]
For the best in OTR Chat, join IRC (Internet Relay Chat), StarLink-IRC
Network, the channel name is #OldRadio. We meet Thursdays at 8 PM Eastern
and go on, and on! The oldest OTR Chat Channel, it has been in existence
over five years, same time, same channel!
Our numerous "regulars" include one of the busiest "golden years" actors in
Hollywood; a sound man from the same era who worked many of the top
Hollywood shows; a New York actor famed for his roles in "Let's Pretend" and
"Archie Andrews;" owners of some of the best OTR sites on the Web;
maintainer of the best-known OTR Digest (we all know who he is)..........
and Me
Lois Culver
KWLK Longview Washington (Mutual) 1941-1944)
KFI Los Angeles (NBC) 1944 - 1950
and widow of actor Howard Culver
(For more info, contact lois@[removed])
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:25:00 -0400
From: "Richard Carpenter" <sinatra@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: MP3 giveaway
Gee, with all the postings about MP3s lately, do you suppose it's
legally OK to give them away? I'll try and see what happens. Today's
giveaway is 65 or so "Gunsmoke" shows on one CD-R, beginning with the 1949
audition show and ending with a 1953 program. I'll send it postage-paid to
the first person who e-mails me.
These CDs work fine, in the manner of MP3s of uncertain origin. I'm only
giving them away because I have duplicate copies or more complete
collections of the shows.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:26:26 -0400
From: "Ian Grieve" <ian@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: MP3 DEBATE
Tony Baechler wrote this direct to me and a copy to the Digest:
Hello Ian and all. I like your idea about making the "good" stuff
available only on audio CD and making lower quality encodes for the
freeloaders, but the fact of the matter is that it would not work. Surely
you know how long it takes to rip a track from audio CD into mp3 and post
it?
Very quick and easy. For the person to do so means they have a copy of the
audio first. What I am suggesting is for the originator to make a low
encode available in mp3 for the listeners BEFORE any restoration occurs.
This will satisfy the listeners which are 80% of the mp3 community. These
people want files that dl fast but sound OK, not great but listenable, hey
its free after all.
By the time a high quality audio version comes to the mp3 encoder, he no
longer has the thrill of being 'first' to 'rip' the show, if he is a person
who wants a high quality encode he may still 'rip' it, but only a small
percentage would bother to replace a low encode with a high encode. They
look more at titles rather than file size and quality.
do you really blame dealers for being so hostile towards mp3
people? Having been on both sides of the fence, I agree with the
frustrations and find most mp3 collectors despicable. I know that is a
strong word to use, but considering it is driving most OTR clubs in the
states out of business I think it is fair. Even now, I am trying to get
rid of a bunch of mp3 CDs.
Yes I do, I think it is for the wrong reasons. All they are doing by
blaming all the mp3 community for the actions of a few, is alienating the
percentage that would go on to be their future customers. Ok, how are you
getting rid of your mp3 CDs? It is very easy to give them away, I do it all
the time. Are you trying to sell mp3 CDs? If so, you fall into the
category that IS damaging the Dealers/Collectors relationship with
customers. I can't see how mp3 is damaging otr clubs. Mp3 is raising the
numbers of people in the hobby as never before. So if memberships are
falling, does that not mean that clubs are not catering to the needs of the
members of the hobby? A situation easily turned around by clubs being more
proactive. I don't mean they have to give away mp3 to entice membership,
but maybe cater for mp3 members as well as introducing those mp3 members to
'real' collecting.
Still, there is a good side to mp3. You can try before you buy, similar to
shareware in the software industry. I really like the "New Series on the
Air," for example because I heard it in mp3. I want to buy it, so I find a
delaer who sells it. However, I am in the vast minority.
Yes you are, along side me and others I know. Mp3 introduced me to the
hobby, the shows hooked me good and proper. Mp3 is not all bad and the bad
points CAN be overcome.
Finally, someone mentioned the otradio IRC channel. I looked this up in
Google groups but could not find current information. Can someone please
advies the correct server and hours? Thanks.
I see the Administrator plugged Lois's irc and why not, but the one I use
has been going for a few years though it has had several address changes
[removed] #otradio port 6667 it has the advantage of 24/7 so Australians
can take part? I can't use Lois's irc as I am working Friday morning my
time when it is on.
Ian Grieve
(loved the poetry Hal, thanks, Blue is my favourite colour so you have a
sale, if you have access to sport channels, make sure you watch the STATE OF
ORIGIN - AUSTRALIAN RUGBY LEAGUE, its a best of 3 competition and my team
the BLUES (NSW) are one game up and the 2nd game is tonight :))
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:27:32 -0400
From: "Rodney w bowcock jr." <rodney-selfhelpbikeco@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Re: CBS Radio Mystery Theater on tape
2. CBS Radio Mystery Theater. Again, no mp3. Tape is acceptable. I
know some people have them but again I want to buy from who is licensed
to sell them at a reasonable price.
I'm pretty certain that *nobody* is actually licensed to sell CBS RMT. I
understand that Radio Spirits offered Hy Brown a good amount of money for
the licensing rights, and Mr. Brown flatly turned them down. As we know,
he likes to look toward the future, and right now CBS RMT is part of
radio's past. He's not interested in looking back.
rodney.
Past Tense Productions
Carrying Old Radio related films, and Hal Roach shorts, for $7 per tape.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:28:17 -0400
From: "John Sellards" <johnsellards@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Re: Voice Tracking
Voice tracking is a growing practice of having an announcer/dj record
all the "talk" or patter that goes between songs to be played in one
short setting.
Compounded by the fact that the guy doesn't have to have any sort of talent
to sound like a halfway decent jock. We have a series of tracked stations
here owned by the same local company, and they've got one guy that doesn't
even know the music, and obviously just reads the computer abbreviations - I
heard "Hey, there's 'Mony Mony' by T James and the Shond on Groovy" back
announced the other day (Tommy James and the Shondells, it should've been)
followed by "Into The Night" by Benny Mardones announced as being by "Ben
Mard". The owners don't care, and probably other than me and a couple
others who listen with such detail, nobody else does either.
John Sellards
[removed]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:30:06 -0400
From: George Guffey <grguffey@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: RioVolt MP3 Players
In "Digest" #201, Step notes:
My Favorite MP3 player
is the SONIC BLUE RioVolt. It reads the IdV tags
really well and plays any sample rate without a pop.
Although I wouldn't say that my own RioVolt PSX100 is
clearly my favorite MP3 player, it is certainly *one*
of my favorites. I bought it about a year and a half
ago. Since then, the RioVolt 100 model has been
superseded by the RioVolt SP250, which incorporates an
FM tuner. I have used my Riovolt approximately an hour
a day since I bought it, and it has never presented me
with even the slightest mechanical difficulty.
One of the most useful features of the RioVolt 100 and
the RioVolt 250 is that the firmware they employ is
upgradeable. For example, when I first obtained my
RioVolt, its firmware did not support the "resume"
feature praised by Step. A few months later, a
firmware upgrade supporting the resume function (and
other new functions) was released. After downloading
the new firmware version and installing it, I found
the new configuration to work perfectly. SONICblue is
to be applauded for its continuing upgrade service to
buyers of its early models.
I assume that Step uses either a RioVolt 100 or a
RioVolt 250, although he doesn't state the model
number of the RioVolt player he recommends. Although I
think he is justified in praising the ability of his
player to handle a wide range of bitrates, I wouldn't
personally go so far as to say that either of these
RioVolt models (or any other player I have seen) is
capable of handling every "sample rate without a pop."
The lengthy and detailed manuals for the RioVolt 100
and the RioVolt 250 make the following relevant claim
in this regard: "Supports 32 Kbps - 320 Kbps." In
playing MP3 files with bitrates lower than 32 kbps, I
have sometimes noticed audio blemishes that appear to
be due to the bitrate involved.
While I am on the subject of RioVolt 100 and RioVolt
250 technical specifications, I should also point out
that the CD support specs for these players are as
impressive as the file bitrate specs:
(1) CD Type: CD-DA; CD-Text; CD-ROM Mode 1, Mode 2
Form 1; Enhanced CD; CD-Plus.
(2) CD-R/RW Read: Packet Write; ISO9660; Joliet;
Romeo; Multi-Session.
The complete 35-page "User Guide" for the RioVolt 250
is available in PDF format at the RioVolt Web site
([removed]). To access it, click
"Support," then click "Rio," then click "RioVolt
SP250," then click "Manuals/Guides," then finally
click "RioVolt SP250 User Guide." The Manual is
lengthy and the download time is sometimes
appreciable, but its coverage is outstanding.
Like Step,
"I often drive with the unit plugged into
my car stereo."
The RioVolt 100 and the RioVolt 250
have not only a headphone port but also a lineout
port. I plug a cassette adapter into the lineout port
of my player. In my house, I frequently listen to my
RioVolt on an FM radio after plugging a small,
low-power FM transmitter into its lineout port. My
brother-in-law uses the lineout port of his RioVolt to
play OTR through his home stereo system.
The RioVolt players are so good that they are close to
attaining cult status. For example, one Yahoo
discussion group is devoted entirely to RioVolt
players. Among the more than 2100 messages posted thus
far by the members of this group, one can find a
discussion of almost every RioVolt characteristic
imaginable. A potential buyer of the RioVolt 250 can
gain a good deal of useful information by sampling
these messages.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:31:10 -0400
From: "Mark E. Higgins" <paul_frees_fan@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Distinctive Voices
Regarding the distinctive voices of radio, I would be remiss if I
didn't place my vote for Paul Frees (the e-mail address says it all).
Frees was definitely one of the most flexible of voices - anyone who
could be both Boris Badenov and Poppin Fresh, the Pillsbury Doughboy,
had to be versatile.
When Orson Welles completed Citizen Kane, he didn't hang around for
retakes, so when some of the soundtrack had to be redone, Frees did his
voice. When Howard McNear wasn't able to do Gunsmoke, he stood in to
play Doc Adams. He was the Autolite announcer for Suspense, as well as
the opening announcer for Escape for a time. He did an enormous number
of supporting roles, as well as leads in many shows - I count at least
ten episodes of Escape during 1947 - 1948, including one of my favorites
- Back For Christmas. Most people wouldn't recognize him - I think he
preferred his anonymity, but he did do some movie roles. He was the
psychiatrist in "The Shaggy Dog", and was a henchman in "Suddenly" with
Frank Sinatra. Sinatra was out to assassinate the President, and Frees
was the one who got it in the Phone Booth. He did a lot of voice work
for Disney - he was Ludwig von Drake, and is also the voice at the
Haunted Mansion at Disney World. Rocky and Bullwinkle would not be the
same without him. I could go on, but suffice to say, once you recognize
his voice, you will begin to hear it everywhere - cartoons, OTR, movies.
--------------------------------
End of [removed] Digest V2002 Issue #205
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